Duke University reverses decision to sound Islamic call to prayer

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Duke University has reversed a decision to sound “adhan”, which calls Muslims students to Friday prayers, from the Duke Chapel bell tower every Friday beginning January 16. In a statement from Duke University, the campus remains “committed to fostering an inclusive, tolerant, and welcoming campus for all of its students.”

 

 

 

 

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Rod Gillis
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Rod Gillis

Surfed, found this video link, a Roman Catholic Church in Belgium temporarily hosted Muslim prayers in their church, in the worship space, modifying the space on an ad hoc basis to do so. Interestingly, the sanctuary cross is highly visible from what I can see. Blessed are the peace makers.

http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws.english/videozone_ENG/archive/1.775960

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Rod Gillis
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Rod Gillis

PS: According to reports, Muslim Friday prayer is in the church basement. The Call to prayer was to be moved up to the bell tower. So what? That's no different than putting a PSA on campus radio or driving around with a bull-horn on a truck, or putting a notice up on the church bulletin board. We have a parish church here that rents out its bell tower to a cell phone company. No, this appears not to be about sacred space; its about wedge politics.

During the cold war I once had some unhappy parishioners complain about an announcement in our pew leaflet pertaining to a peace and disarmament group. This is the same species controversy.

The program at the National Cathedral focused the issue differently; but I trust the staff there to know their context.

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Rod Gillis
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Rod Gillis

Man, its a long scroll to the end of this thread! There is very interesting article posted on Thinking Anglicans this morning. (link below). The author is Father Richard Peers, Anglican Priest and Executive Headteacher at Trinity, Lewisham school in the diocese of Southwark. This part of his post caught my eye after last evening's back and forth here over Duke.

"At Trinity our Muslim and Hindu families have no problem with what we do. We have an Arabic school for Muslim families that meets here every Saturday. When our Muslim children want a prayer room we provide it. The current Head girl is a Muslim – one with a great devotion, as it happens, to Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta – and Muslim pupils have travelled with us regularly to Taizé where we provide a tent for them to use for prayer, although they are also expected to join in the community prayer as well – so a mere 8 prayer sessions a day for them."

I'm thinking, maybe we could take up a collection and send
"evangelist" Franklin Graham to this school for a sabbatical? Perhaps it might help him tweak up his Zen center?

Read the whole post here, or over at Thinking Anglicans.

http://trinitylewisham.com/2014/06/22/sermon-12th-sunday-in-ordinary-time-year-a/

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Chaz Brooks
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Chaz Brooks

"Providing space" for Muslims to pray implicitly presumes that there isn't space for them to pray in the worship of the Church. This is a statement of people who believe Islam and Christianity are fundamentally incompatible, which is quite the opposite of what the party line on this thread seems to be.

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Rods Gillis
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Rods Gillis

Don't get the sense of "incompatibility" from Fr. Peers article. What I do get is a desire for some bridge building and generosity. Now that, it seems, is very different from Franklin Graham's hysterical wedge politics. Someone needs to tell him that evangelists usually have good news to tell. No doubt a pointless exercise since most Fundies live in a world of pretzel logic. But hey, he's on the national stage and cranking up his base.

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David Allen
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David Allen

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=religion%20surveys%20among%20Millennials

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Nick Porter
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Nick Porter

Try talking to some actual people rather than running to a poll. The more conservative denominations have plenty of millennials with young families. If TEC has the recent General Convention resolutions correct then why aren't our membership numbers in the 10s of millions? What's our average age of someone in the pew again?

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Chaz Brooks
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Chaz Brooks

No one but no one doubts that Millennials generally espouse progressive values. The question is whether progressive values get young people in church. I just can't see any evidence of that.

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David Allen
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David Allen

Have you not heard, that's how reputable religious researchers do business? Organizations such as Pew and Gallup actually speak to 100s and 1000s of folks; in this case real Millennials.

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Ann Fontaine
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Ann Fontaine

Duke students rally for call to prayer
http://www.religionnews.com/2015/01/16/hundreds-duke-students-rally-muslims-fridays-call-prayer/

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David Allen
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David Allen

Duke was founded by Methodists, and its limestone chapel at the center of campus is used as a Christian church. But, as the dean of the chapel explained to reporters, the chapel also serves a “moderator” and “convener” for other faith groups on campus, including Muslims.

“Our aim is to live into a generous hospitality toward different traditions,” said Powery.

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Chaz Brooks
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Chaz Brooks

Millennials need to be pandered to relentlessly if we want them in the Church.

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Nick Porter
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Nick Porter

Whatever you say,David. Because there are no millennials who are traditional. All of them think like you right? Everyone who doesn't are haters and hate mongers right?

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David Allen
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David Allen

If they wait a couple more years they will be able to knock down the chapel and do that. The kids on campus today are Millennials and they are voting with their feet for none of the above when it comes to Christianity because they find Christians to be mean and unwelcoming do to their intolerance of others; mostly exhibited in the rampant homophobia and transphobia and situations such as this.

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Nick Porter
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Nick Porter

Build an interfaith center. Problem solved.

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Rod Gillis
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Rod Gillis

Anne, thanks for this link. The earlier RNS feed was also informative. This particular situation is something of a frame through which to view similar current conflict over inter-faith and cultural tensions.

From the article in the link you provided, "First to show their support to the Muslim students on Friday were Duke Divinity School students who gathered on the lawn in large numbers." God bless them!

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Robert Martin
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Robert Martin

I'm not sure what is meant by idolatry in this context, but the fact does remain, that the Chapel is consecrated ground and has never been used to issue calls to prayer to anyone but Christians. This is totally consistent with its bequests, design, construction and purpose.

It is not essential to the Moslem students, that they have use of a Christian facility for prayer or meetings. It is essential for the Christian purpose, however, that they have use and direction of the building constructed for Christians. This is the whole purpose of the building.

(The idea that it is not permissible to not issue a call to prayer from a Chapel is rather an idol itself, is it not? I would not broaden the term idol in such a way, but it might be consistent with the way it was used.)

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Chaz Brooks
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Chaz Brooks

Maybe take a closer look at the last line.

"His worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth"

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Chaz Brooks
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Chaz Brooks

Well, thank you for proving once and for all there was no point in trying to argue principles with you.

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David Allen
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David Allen

So this is Christianity vs Islam. Christianity = Truth, Islam = False. And your line in the sand is they may worship in the building, but they may not issue the call to worship from the building?

That's all very logical. And very loving and Christian. It's what Jesus would do. It embodies the parable of the Good Samaritan. And also the separating the sheep from the goats at the last day. Not to mention the 2nd greatest commandment.

I repent. I'm convicted and see the error of my way.

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David Allen
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David Allen

"but the fact does remain, that the Chapel is consecrated ground"

I'm not familiar with that concept in the teachings of Jesus; “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem...Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

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Robert Martin
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Robert Martin

Despite what some posters have written, the Duke Chapel is exactly that--a Christian chapel designed, built and consecrated to the Glory of God and His Son Jesus Christ. This has been the historic and actual purpose of the Chapel. Did you know it is in fact partly modeled on the Cathedral at Canterbury?

The Chapel has been gracious host but it has never been, an interfaith student union. It is holy Christian ground, until its founders say it isn't and move to make it so. Some posters see in this affirmation, something "fundamentally" at odds with the world. Yes, it is. This belief has always been fundamentally at odds with the world, that some spaces, are reserved especially for those called apart in Christ. And what of it?

No doubt, in the intervening years since its construction and consecration--a term which means, a distinctive setting aside for a holy purpose and yes, a holy Christian purpose—the Chapel has been used for other functions, including some use by other faiths and groups.

This is the case at many churches, particularly in matters of exigency. A church may for a time, for instance, allow another group to use some space in its facility, for worship and prayerful meetings, while the guest group’s own worship space is being constructed or rebuilt. This is very often the case where the other group is also a Christian group, meaning, they share a particular distinctiveness, basically, a clear belief in the Gospel and the person of the Lord. This is done in the name of friendship and peace amongst Christians.

The guest group, does not demand absolute and unfettered access nor proffer a demand that the host facility, say that it is not what it set out to be and what it continues to represent. Nor does it say that the church they are in, is not a Church, but an interfaith prayer facility. AA can use our space, but they cannot toll the bell.

Perhaps what the Duke campus needs, is in fact an interfaith prayer space, that is neutral ground. Because most certainly, a large and historic Chapel built by Christendom for His glory, is a Holy place of the Lord.

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David Allen
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David Allen

The students didn't demand anything. They requested of the university that they be allowed to issue the call to prayer from the tower that is part of the same building where the university has provided them space to worship. And in the same vein that the university provides the students an Imam and a worship space, the university said yes to the request, believing in good faith that it was in keeping with multicultural atmosphere they have nourished and fostered on their campus.

I think that you have turned church buildings into idols. Especially since if this is any kind of church building, it is a Methodist/Quaker church building and they don't have any such high church understanding of their buildings.

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Chaz Brooks
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Chaz Brooks

My Lord. Hateful fundamentalists, bigots, and now idolaters? Why don't you just make a list of sins you think people who disagree with you are guilty of. It would be faster.

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David Allen
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David Allen

Amen.

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Rod Gillis
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Rod Gillis

When this story first appeared, about Duke's plan to build upon its commitment to its Muslim community and increase the profile of the call to prayer, the Leonard Cohen song, Democracy , came to mind, and these lines,

"It's coming to America first,
The cradle of the best and of the worst.
It's here they got the range
And the machinery for change
And it's here they got the spiritual thirst.
It's here the family's broken
And it's here the lonely say
That the heart has got to open
In a fundamental way:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A."

What an opportunity for a renowned American university, with Methodist and Quaker roots and a large Muslim community, to advance an alternative to the ugly global religious narratives of the moment. As proponents of the plan have said, here is an opportunity to encourage religious pluralism, inter-faith harmony, and highlight Islam in a way that contrasts with stigma superimposed upon it by violent extremists. Sadly, tragically, ironically for the moment, it seems that the reaction to the move has provided a national stage for Christian fundamentalist intolerance. It has resulted, as well, in anti-Muslim extremism, with media reports that Duke has reversed its decision because of credible security threats . Christian hard line fundamentalists, like all fundamentalists, never seem satisfied with practicing their own religion; but rather have, it would appear, an fundamental need to prevent progressive Christians, humanists, and folks from other religions from acting on their values. But, as Cohen discerns in song, the Berlin Wall was once thought permanent. It came down. So too will the anti-democratic intolerance that often serves a parochial politcal cause. It is hard to imagine this kind of set back remaining durable.

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Chaz Brooks
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Chaz Brooks

re: Cheap Grace: The idea of the grace of the Eucharist as a commodity the Church can give away so that people don't feel bad is probably one of the better examples.

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Chaz Brooks
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Chaz Brooks

I was recently shocked at the number of seminarians that confidently affirmed that the canons of the Church and the authority of the bishop don't count when they think they know God's will better than everyone else.

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Nick Porter
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Nick Porter

Not to mention a violation of ordination vows:

The Bishop says to the ordinand
Will you be loyal to the doctrine, discipline, and worship of
Christ as this Church has received them? And will you, in
accordance with the canons of this Church, obey your bishop
and other ministers who may have authority over you and
your work?

Answer
I am willing and ready to do so; and I solemnly declare that I
do believe the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments
to be the Word of God, and to contain all things necessary to
salvation; and I do solemnly engage to conform to the doctrine,
discipline, and worship of The Episcopal Church.

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Chaz Brooks
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Chaz Brooks

You mistakenly feel that the only reason a person would be against this sort of thing is "hard line fundamentalism," or is seeking "to prevent progressive Christians, humanists, and folks from other religions from acting on their values." You've only repeated David's bad arguments, but with more words.

For myself, I only think using our churches for the proclamation of Islamic prayers is incompatible with the claims of the Christian Gospel. Unlike you seem to, I don't think people who disagree with me are necessarily bad people.

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Rod Gillis
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Rod Gillis

@Chaz, "I am getting tired of how I get treated on this board for questioning the party line."

Don't let anyone shut you down on that account. Party lines, of any type or stripe, require vigorous challenge. Speaking only for myself, I like to spar, partly because I'm slightly selfish in wanting to stay a little sharper than I otherwise might be in retirement. I read a lot more here than I comment on ( believe it or not), so I see most of the posts, and I can't think of anything of yours that ought to be taken personally by anyone. I just assume most people post because, at some level, they care. Like the guy said, all the world is a stage and we are merely actors on it.

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Chaz Brooks
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Chaz Brooks

“People arguing against this sort of misguided concept of hospitality because of ~principles~ aren’t the “primary conflict” and one shouldn’t be bothered to engage with them.”

You actually said that one. Implicitly, but it's there. Is it not fair to point out things only stated implicitly? Probably.

“Cheap Grace: The idea of the grace of the Eucharist as a commodity the Church can give away so that people don’t feel bad is probably one of the better examples.”

It's certainly not as bad as the sorts of accusations that have been hurled at me, but fair enough.

"The latter is also an example of the existential/conviviality thing."

I doubt it, but when you want to talk about it without discussing my character, do let me know. But I gotta say, I am getting tired of how I get treated on this board for questioning the party line.

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Rod Gillis
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Rod Gillis

@ Chaz, "...if I ever do that, please call me on it."

Happy to oblige:

"People arguing against this sort of misguided concept of hospitality because of ~principles~ aren’t the “primary conflict” and one shouldn’t be bothered to engage with them."

And ...

"Cheap Grace: The idea of the grace of the Eucharist as a commodity the Church can give away so that people don’t feel bad is probably one of the better examples."

The latter is also an example of the existential/conviviality thing.

-au revoir, Rod

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Chaz Brooks
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Chaz Brooks

"Yet, from the point of view of rhetorical criticism, to the extent that blog posts have any literary merit in the first place, your rejoinders tend toward the freshman debating tactic of putting words in the mouths of your interlocutors."

Howzabout this: if I ever do that, please call me on it. I am more than happy to take pointers on my game.

"I don’t glean from your posts a lot of experience with, or particular interest in, the existential realities that come with attempting to do the hard work of conviviality. Good luck getting traction among the undecided with that approach. Just sayin."

I glean from your post more interested in talking about the character of your opponents than the issues.

"Good luck getting traction among the undecided with that approach. Just sayin."

I have this crazy idea that we don't have to co-opt our beliefs and principles to appeal to anyone. Or, at least, if the truth of the Gospel doesn't appeal to people all on its own, then it isn't worth believing in.

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Rod Gillis
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Rod Gillis

You post about discussing principles, logic, and the like. Nothing wrong with that of course. Yet, from the point of view of rhetorical criticism, to the extent that blog posts have any literary merit in the first place, your rejoinders tend toward the freshman debating tactic of putting words in the mouths of your interlocutors. I don't glean from your posts a lot of experience with, or particular interest in, the existential realities that come with attempting to do the hard work of conviviality. Good luck getting traction among the undecided with that approach. Just sayin.

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Nick Porter
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Nick Porter

Oh David, no one said they they couldn't practice their religion.

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David Allen
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David Allen

I'm not sure how your intolerance to Moslems students being allowed to call their community to prayer on a university campus is somehow honoring Jesus as God the Son.

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Nick Porter
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Nick Porter

David, Jesus being God the Son isn't enough of a reason?

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David Allen
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David Allen

Because nowhere in this thread have you posited any principles, you've merely stated that Duke not allowing the Moslem students to precede their worship time in the building with the traditional call to prayer is some kind of commitment to Duke's Christian faith and because allowing the call to prayer is somehow incompatible to some unspoken claims of the Christian Gospel.

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Nick Porter
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Nick Porter

More advocates for cheap grace.

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Chaz Brooks
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Chaz Brooks

You've gotten lots of chances to move up to sincere engagement and have rejected them all, David. I can't be bothered to go around the block any more times.

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David Allen
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David Allen

What principles are those? Where in this thread have you presented any principles?

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Chaz Brooks
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Chaz Brooks

Ah, I see. People arguing against this sort of misguided concept of hospitality because of ~principles~ aren't the "primary conflict" and one shouldn't be bothered to engage with them.

That's pretty sad. I was hoping for discussing principles on this board, but if this thread is any indication, I've come the wrong place.

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Rod Gillis
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Rod Gillis

Chaz, I have no opinion of you good or bad or otherwise, although on occasion I've expressed counter opinions to your posts.

Most differences of opinion take place without one sizing up the other as the good or the bad; but frankly, some of the negative public reaction to the outreach to the Muslim community at both Duke and The National Cathedral goes beyond mere disagreement to attitudes and behaviors that a harmful.

I understand fully that there would be a spectrum of reasons why people would not be in favor of the policy Duke has advanced, with a spectrum of ways in which people might either articulate or act out their disapproval. However the university has commented upon, and any number of media outlets are reporting on, the primary conflcit involved in this. It is on those primary issues of open conflict as I understand them to which my post is directed.

I would simply add that the university church context here, and as well, The National Cathedral venue in Washington, which I've had the privilege to visit, raise up issues of context that test your assertion that, "using our churches for the proclamation of Islamic prayers is incompatible with the claims of the Christian Gospel." It isn't that long ago that facility sharing between Roman Catholics and Anglicans would have seemed just as outrageous. But then, I once gave holy communion to some Islamic folks who came forward to receive motivated by their values of hospitality. So,while you need to stand on your principles, they don't necessarily work for me.

As for using more words, guilty as charged! It is an occupational hazard, coming from years of pastoring and preaching. Talking with people in front of you is a lot more difficult than posting quick retorts on line. I wasn't in the pulpit very long before realizing I was no longer in a debating club.

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David Allen
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David Allen

When did the Lead become a hangout for fundamentalist haters?

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JC Fisher
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JC Fisher

^This, 1000000 times!

Was it just 3-4 months ago, when Jim Naughton stepped down, that there was discussion of closing the Cafe? I was *horrified*.

Now, w/ the rampant tag-team incivility going on here, closing the Cafe might be a *relief*.

Episcopalians never agree on anything, including how to be/do their faith, but could we PLEASE see some more "What Would Jesus (have me) Do?" around here? A modicum more charity, compassion, empathy?

I don't even recognize this place half the time anymore... 🙁

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Rod Gillis
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Rod Gillis

JC, think I get what you are saying. Someone recently reminded me, that all communities are dynamic, i.e. some folks move on, new folks arrive, and the community changes. Probably applies to on-line communities as well. Most days, these days, I get to wondering if on-line forums and comment boards, all considered, really make a contribution to the common good. Comes a time for every one when its worth pondering a ride into the sunset.

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Chaz Brooks
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Chaz Brooks

I am banking on the possibility that he was talking about David, since I know I've been entirely civil.

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Nick Porter
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Nick Porter

"rampant tag-team incivility"=Opinions I don't agree with.

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David Allen
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David Allen

As you were ranting at Pope Francis yesterday?

🙂

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David Allen
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David Allen

I asked respectfully. After I returned here from the holidays there are a few people that I hadn't noticed in the past, under the old format, stating horribly fundamentalist and hateful opinions in many topics.

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Chaz Brooks
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Chaz Brooks

"I did well in logic thank you."

I would rather you showed me instead of told me.

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David Allen
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David Allen

I plainly stated that I attended seminary at SMU. That would be vary past tense. I am a Mexican Anglican, not a priest and not a leader in the UMC. I did well in logic thank you.

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Chaz Brooks
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Chaz Brooks

Do you have the option of taking a course in logic at SMU, David? You clearly need it. The United Methodist Church needs its leaders to think clearly and fairly.

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Nick Porter
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Nick Porter

Please stop with the bigotry David. It's unbecoming of you.

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David Allen
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David Allen

As if the shoe fits.

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Chaz Brooks
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Chaz Brooks

Well, I had thought that, when you started spewing rubbish about "fundamentalist haters," it had something to do with this thread. Was that a mistake?

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Nick Porter
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Nick Porter

David, someone doesn't have to name names in order to see through very thinly veiled comments. Please learn to accept that not everyone is going to feel the same way you do about every single issue.

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David Allen
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David Allen

I haven't accused anyone. You two have jumped to conclusions as if the shoe fits.

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Chaz Brooks
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Chaz Brooks

You are on this very thread accusing everyone that dares to disagree with you fundamentalists, though I can't see anyone taking a particularly fundamentalist line myself. You drop that word like it means the arguments are automatically invalid simply by the association.

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Nick Porter
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Nick Porter

A distinction without a difference,David. You "feel" that the comments are hateful and fundamentalist because you don't agree with them.

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David Allen
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David Allen

I wasn't referring to folks who have an opinion contrary to mine, I was referring to folks with a strikingly fundamentalist bent, who are posting hateful comments in a number of different topics in this forum.

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Nick Porter
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Nick Porter

Are you saying that the only people that should be allowed to comment are those that share your views? There can be no true dialogue if only people that land on a certain place on the scale are allowed to have a say. If people are being respectful then they should be allowed a voice. But calling them "fundamentalist haters" because you disagree with their viewpoint is wrong, and frankly, it's bigoted.

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Chaz Brooks
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Chaz Brooks

"I asked respectfully."

If you think calling anyone that dares to disagree with you "fundamentalist haters" can be done respectfully, you've got a tin ear.

I'm not a fundamentalist or hateful, but I'm not going to spend a lot of time disproving it because even if it were true, that doesn't mean my arguments are false. It's what we call the genetic fallacy.

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Nick Porter
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Nick Porter

I think we need some moderation here. The comment about "fundamentalists haters" is very much uncalled for. If people are sharing their opinions in a respectful manner then there is no reason for a response like this.

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Chaz Brooks
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Chaz Brooks

Pardon me, but I am not a fundamentalist, and I think it's quite sad that you think you can dismiss any disagreement with a slur like "hater."

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Michael Morris
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Michael Morris

Whether we like it or not, we are going to have to learn to get along with Muslims. They are not going away, in the world or in the US. They are our neighbors, and for some of us our friends and co-workers.

I suppose it wouldn't have bothered me if Duke had declined to allow this in the first place. What bothers me is that they gave permission, then rescinded it. It certainly doesn't do any honor to God, and it needlessly builds justified resentment that could have been avoided.

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Randall Stewart
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Randall Stewart

*(A very fine pipe organ that they consider inappropriate to use in worship.)

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Randall Stewart
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Randall Stewart

It has never made sense to me why someone would want to use a building filled with images they believe are idolatrous, not to mention a very fine pipe organ.

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David Allen
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David Allen

The Moslems don't meet in the Christian worship space, they meet in another part of the building, a space appropriate for their style of worship.

Bro David

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The Rev Dr Ellen Barrett (Sr Helena,OSB)
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The Rev Dr Ellen Barrett (Sr Helena,OSB)

This was evidently not intended to be a stunt, and to call it one is insulting. I am, however, assuming that the chapel will continue to ring its bells? That has historically been offensive to Muslims. Hence, I would guess, the origin of the use of the semantron to call monks to prayer in Greek Orthodox places once ruled by Muslims.

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Chaz Brooks
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Chaz Brooks

I hope Muslims don't find the bells too offensive, because it's a free country and the University can do as it likes. But, it being a private university, Duke has no obligation to use its bell tower for Muslim prayers.

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Nick Porter
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Nick Porter

I believe it was a stunt, just like the fiasco at the National Cathedral was a stunt. I don't understand how it could be an insult to you personally. Apparently the top dollars donors feel the same way I do.

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David Allen
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David Allen

Duke is a secular university with a Christian heritage. It isn’t a Chriatian university and has no Christian faith any more than it has a Moslem faith. It has paid chaplains of both the Christian and Moslem faiths. It’s sad that the threats from Franklin Graham stirred the deep pockets upon which the school depends. He continues to taint the reputation of his father to promote his fundamentalist agenda.

It’s a day of shame for Duke University.

Bro David

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Robert Martin
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Robert Martin

The chapel's not secular, is it?

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David Allen
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David Allen

Would they have cared if someone didn't stir them up?

We won't know for sure because we neither one of us read minds.

I viewed the decision by a self-proclaimed "independent and non-sectarian" university to honor the Moslem student community's request and allow the call to prayer from the bell tower to be reasonable and in keeping with the ongoing accommodation of the needs of Duke's multi-cultural student body. You view it as a stunt and some sort of violation of the school's Christian heritage.

Jesus told the Samaritan woman that those who worship God will do so in Spirit and truth, location is no longer important. In the end the Duke chapel is just a building on campus. What is the problem with the Moslem students singing the call to prayer from the bell tower?

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Nick Porter
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Nick Porter

Do you have anything to add to the conversation except calling people "fundamentalist haters" "hate mongers" etc.,David? And here's another question, why say they were "stirred up"? You don't think they are capable of making their own decisions without the aid of someone else??

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Chaz Brooks
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Chaz Brooks

'It would seem logical that “I don’t see” is equivalent to “To me.”'

The critical difference being that it is possible for you to explain why your principle is sound, while I can hardly make any argument about how you feel.

"Frankly, I don’t care about the bigoted manner in which you see these matters regarding Duke U meeting the spiritual needs of its Moslem student body."

It's the same old fallacy you've been pedaling the whole time. You see, I might very will be a bigot, a hateful fundamentalist, or even a mass-murdering meth addict, but it wouldn't make your arguments any more clear or logical.

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David Allen
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David Allen

And hate mongers stirred the donors up.

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Nick Porter
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Nick Porter

David, no one made anyone apply to that school and no one made them pay tuition and attend that school once accepted. Their castle, their rules. That's what it boils down to really. And those donors have a say because they keep the lights on.

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David Allen
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David Allen

It would seem logical that "I don't see" is equivalent to "To me." Frankly, I don’t care about the bigoted manner in which you see these matters regarding Duke U meeting the spiritual needs of its Moslem student body.

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Chaz Brooks
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Chaz Brooks

"And you make statements about logic directed at me."

There are some pretty big differences. One, the statements about your logic have something to do with your arguments here, while you're pretending your statements about fundamentalist hatred weren't directed at anyone in particular. Two, the statements about how illogical you are being here are true. Three, the statements about logic have to do with your arguments and not your character.

"To me..."

Frankly, I don't care about how matters are to you. I care about how they are. That means references to principles. Sorry, I don't see how the principle "If you give them an inch you are obligated to give them a mile" is a very solid one.

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David Allen
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David Allen

And you make statements about logic directed at me.

Those same Moslem students for whom Duke U hired an Imam have now requested that an important ritual of their faith be allowed from the tower of the same building in which they meet for worship and that's the straw to break the camel's back. Honoring that request by the Moslem student's of Duke U has been labeled a stunt in comments here. Has been deemed as a betrayal of the university's Christian heritage.

To me it was an affirmative answer to a reasonable request as part of the university's aim of meeting the faith needs of the student body, hand in hand with hiring an Imam. But 700 students is a sizable chunk of a student body, perhaps they should build an Islamic Center on campus with a mosque and a minaret.

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Chaz Brooks
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Chaz Brooks

So? Just because it's Methodist doesn't mean it can't see to the needs of its non-Methodist students. The university has Muslim students who need a chaplain. The hospital down the road from me is Catholic but employs a Jewish chaplain because it has a large number of Jewish patients.

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David Allen
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David Allen

However, these folks ain't renting out the basement, the Imam who leads the Duke Moslem students in Islamic worship on Fridays in the Duke Chapel building is a full time Duke University employee, employed as the university chaplain to the Moslem students on campus and also the head of the Islamic Studies department.

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Chaz Brooks
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Chaz Brooks

No. The Episcopal cathedral in my diocese rents out its basement for a Muslim worship service, but that doesn't make it affiliated with Islam.

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David Allen
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David Allen

So the Roman Catholic priest who says Mass there on Sunday evenings for the Catholic students on campus is part of that formal and on-going affiliation with the UMC?

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Chaz Brooks
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Chaz Brooks

The chapel, like the university, has a "formal and ongoing affiliation" with the United Methodist Church. I think "secular" means something different to David than it means to me or indeed most people.

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David Allen
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David Allen

The chapel belongs to the university, not any Christian organization. The university is muti-cutural and the building is used for worship by student groups that are of other faiths.

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Nick Porter
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Nick Porter

No one can taint the reputation of an individual but the individual themselves. Both Franklin and his father share the same traditional values and no doubt he thought Duke's stunt was a dumb one. The only shame was them even attempting to do this to begin with.

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Chaz Brooks
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Chaz Brooks

"Duke is a secular university with a Christian heritage. It isn’t a Chriatian university and has no Christian faith any more than it has a Moslem faith."

The Duke website hasn't gotten the memo, which still claims the place is affiliated with the United Methodist Church.

"It’s a day of shame for Duke University."

It would only be shameful if it had some sort of obligation to announce the Islamic call to prayer from its bell tower.

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Chaz Brooks
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Chaz Brooks

"You lot?" Surely you can do better than a guilt by association argument? I should hope a seminarian knows how to dial back the emotion and make this about principles. Seminary is graduate school after all.

"I have no idea how a member of the Moslem group standing in the tower and calling the 700+ Moslems who are students at Duke to prayer in the building below is some great abominable issue."

I have no idea how not letting him do it is such a great abominable issue. It's a free country. They can believe what they like, but that doesn't mean I have to let them shout their beliefs from my front porch.

Though, to be fair, Duke isn't rescinding the plan because of principles or its convictions, but because of fear. Which isn't terribly admirable either.

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David Allen
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David Allen

Perhaps you lot should also round up the alumni/donor posse and raise cain about the fact that the Moslems also gather and worship in the building.

I have no idea how a member of the Moslem group standing in the tower and calling the 700+ Moslems who are students at Duke to prayer in the building below is some great abominable issue.

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Chaz Brooks
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Chaz Brooks

It isn't one or the other. Just because it isn't owned and operated by the Methodist Church doesn't automatically mean it's secular. That passage there describes the relationship as "formal, on-going, and symbolic," and how you can work that out as secular I can hardly fathom.

Which is really besides the point, since you haven't really established that Duke has any obligation at all to use its bell tower for Muslim prayers.

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David Allen
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David Allen

This is how Duke describes itself;
Duke University has historical, formal, on-going, and symbolic ties with Methodism, but is an independent and non-sectarian institution...Duke has much in common with other Methodist related schools such as Northwestern, Syracuse, Vanderbilt, or the University of Southern California. Each is unique, and Duke would not be the institution it is today without its ties to the Methodist Church. However, the Methodist Church does not own or direct the University. Duke is and has developed as a private non-profit corporation which is owned and governed by an autonomous and self-perpetuating Board of Trustees.
http://library.duke.edu/uarchives/history/duke-umchh-basic.html

It's modern ties to the UMC is through Duke Divinity School, which is one of the 13 seminaries founded for the training of UMC clergy. Duke is very unlike where I attended seminary, Perkins at SMU, which is wholly owned and operated by the South Central Jurisdiction of the UMC. A secular school with a Christian heritage.

Bro David

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Chaz Brooks
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Chaz Brooks

I, for one, applaud Duke's commitment to its Christian faith. Would that our National Cathedral shared it.

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Nick Porter
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Nick Porter

I guess those high dollar donors weren't going for this stunt.

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