Albany bishop draws red line, challenges authority of GC

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In a pastoral letter to his diocese, the Bishop of Albany has stated his refusal to live within Resolution B012 (Marriage Rites for the Whole Church) passed at General Convention last summer. The resolution, is scheduled to take effect on Advent 1 of this years and the pertinent sections are in resolves seven and eight;

“Resolved, That under the canonical direction of the Rector or Member of the Clergy in charge and where permitted to do so by civil law, provision will be made for all couples desiring to use these marriage liturgies in their local congregation or worshipping community, provided that nothing in this Resolve narrows the authority of the Rector or Priest-in-Charge (Canon III.9.6(a)); and be it further

Resolved, That in dioceses where the bishop exercising ecclesiastical authority (or, where applicable, ecclesiastical supervision) holds a theological position that does not embrace marriage for same-sex couples, and there is a desire to use such rites by same-sex couples in a congregation or worshipping community, the bishop exercising ecclesiastical authority (or ecclesiastical supervision) shall invite, as necessary, another bishop of this Church to provide pastoral support to the couple, the Member of the Clergy involved and the congregation or worshipping community in order to fulfill the intention of this resolution that all couples have convenient and reasonable local congregational access to these rites; and be it further…”

In his pastoral letter (read it all here), Bishop Love of Albany wrote of his opposition to the resolution both at General Convention and continuing until now;

“When B012 was presented to the House of Bishops at the 79th General Convention, I both spoke and voted against it, sharing my concerns, all to no avail. A few weeks ago, I met with the Presiding Bishop, the Most Reverend Michael Curry, to once again share my concerns regarding B012 and the tremendous damage I believe it will cause not only in the Diocese of Albany, but throughout The Episcopal Church and wider Anglican Communion”

Bishop Love has decided to draw a line based on his personal beliefs and understanding of his role on behalf of the entirety of the diocese of Albany; “B012 ignores God’s Word regarding marriage and thus ignores the authority of Holy Scripture.” He lays the blame for General Convention’s actions squarely on Satan and the “Gay Rights Agenda.”

“While I don’t question the sincerity or the well intentions of many in the Episcopal Church who believe the best way to love and minister to our Gay and Lesbian Brothers and Sisters in Christ is to embrace them in their sexuality and make provisions for their same-sex attractions through same-sex marriage rites, I do believe they have been deceived into believing a lie that has been planted in the Church by the “great deceiver” – Satan. In his letter to the Ephesians, Paul states: “…stand against the schemes of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.” (Ephesians 6:11-13).
The Episcopal Church and Western Society have been hijacked by the “Gay Rights Agenda” which is very well organized, very strategic, very well financed, and very powerful. Satan is having a heyday bringing division into the Church over these issues and is trying to use the Church to hurt and destroy the very ones we love and care about by deceiving the leadership of the Church into creating ways for our gay and lesbians brothers and sister to embrace their sexual desires rather than to repent and seek God’s love and healing grace. B012 plays right into this.”

The bishop closes out his lengthy list of justifications with a pastoral directive to disallow implementation of B012, setting himself and his diocese in direct contravention of the will of the wider church as expressed through General Convention;

“Until further notice, the trial rites authorized by Resolution B012 of the 79th General Convention of the Episcopal Church shall not be used anywhere in the Diocese of Albany by diocesan clergy (canonically resident or licensed), and Diocesan Canon 16
shall be fully complied with by all diocesan clergy and parishes.”

 

 

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JoS. S Laughon
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The good bishop made the mistake in thinking it is 10 years ago and all this talk of the "comprehensiveness" of TEC was serious and not a play at power. There's a new Conformity Act in town and you will be made to conform.

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Gwen Palmer
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Gwen Palmer

I don’t see how the bishop is being required to conform. He is welcome to follow his conscience. Defining conformity as his not being able to prevent others from following their own consciences is a very wrong concept of “conformity.”

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Paula Wade
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Paula Wade

This saddens me greatly, and it troubles me - what does this action imply to the Church itself? Can this action stand? And if it does stand, does it invite any other Bishop on the losing side of a controversy to do the same? I am sure the Most Revd. Curry will continue to respond lovingly to this Bishop and to the needs of his Diocese, but in terms of the polity of the Church, this is a highly corrosive action. Can someone enlighten me on what can be done about this??

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Philip Gumbs
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Philip Gumbs

I would be believe that all responders to this article are aware of other groups that are beginning to demand their rights as the lgbt have succeeded in doing. So when the Most Rev Currys capitulate to them from a distorted belief that God is all mushy love, a belief that ignores that He is equally holy and a consuming fire, Hebrews 12:29, will the Bishop Loves be vilified by people like yourselves as well?

Is there anything that is intrinsically sinful, or are you antinomians? Heterosexuals aren’t automatically going to heaven. Only those who repent of their sins and serve the holy God who sent His Son in love to redeem all who would receive His grace.

Truth is irrespective of the voice of the church or the decree of bishops. The majority has generally sided against truth, thus the opposition to prophets, true believers and Christ. They were killed because the majority saw them as being “hateful”, “harsh”, “hurting people’s feelings”.

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Gwen Palmer
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Gwen Palmer

No one who has weathered the difficulties of life and family in a marriage would ever view marriage as an expression of “mushy love” for one another, or mushy love of God for His people. Committed, covenantal marriage is a whole lot more like that holy fire, and any two people who walk together through the often gut-wrenching challenges of it, and meet those challenges better because of their partner’s love, know that their marriage, SS or man/woman, is blessed by God. Some things are intrinsically sinful. That kind of courage and commitment isn’t one of them.

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Daniel English
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Daniel English

If any bishop would work to create division and turn people away from the love of God due to their views they should be removed. There is no separate God for anyone. If you speak in your pulpit and pray in your pew that there is only one God. There can be no dispensing shares of God's love. The same God who loves the heterosexual also loves the homosexual. It is no different than saying God favors man over woman, white over black, and etc. Acting as if the nature of God is anything but loving and life-affirming is an affront to the gospels.

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Philip Gumbs
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Philip Gumbs

The loving Jesus said, “Go and sin no more lest a worse thing happen to you.” The loving Jesus also said, “...but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil”. Unlike the “anything but love and life-affirming” god you believe in, the Jesus of the gospels said, “You are of your father the devil”. “Hateful” fellow, eh?

The loving Jesus said, “many false prophets shall arise and deceive many”. “So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just.” Guess we need to delete those words or explain them away.

Let’s not create a jesus after our own sinful image. He is who He is - loving, holy, “loves righteousness and hates iniquity”

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Cynthia Katsarelis
Member

I believe that we do know the false prophets by their fruits. The church's homophobic language has contributed to LGBTQI teen suicide, LGBTQI homeless kids who are outcasts from their homes and subject to abuse like human trafficking, hate crimes, discrimination, depression and a host of difficulties. Ugly fruits.

Salvation is up to God and God does not need hateful gatekeepers.

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Suzette Reynolds
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Suzette Reynolds

I have to wonder whether people who fear the "gay agenda", and think marriage must not be allowed for same-sex couples, keep kosher. Do they wear only clothing made with one fiber?

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Philip Gumbs
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Philip Gumbs

The gay agenda is showcased in the BBC news clip of a UK teacher requiring all her 6year old students to write a marriage proposal letter from the prince to his male (actually there are 50+ genders now according to the infallible lgbt) servant whom he loves.

The gay agenda encourages preschoolers to question their gender and seek hormonal treatment asap. The gay agenda teaches 6 year olds how to masturbate.

Parents who object to any such indoctrination are pronounced bigoted, oppressive and harmful to their own children.

Strange that the gamblers, drunkards, adulterers, fornicators, liars, thieves, drug dealers, ad infinitum, don’t scream out that to oppose them is hate speech, but these people, 85% of who were molested as children and need compassionate help - not rights - throw tantrums that make a toddler envious as they scream “haters!”.

We all have sinned and rather than defending it we need to humbly repent of it.

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Cynthia Katsarelis
Member

The "gay agenda" is to live in dignity and justice as children of God, created in the Image of God, just like you. "Indoctrination" is not a "gay agenda." People are born as we are. Are you perhaps mistaking "indoctrination" for tolerance?

There's no gay conspiracy to convert children or anyone else. That is simply paranoia and that's why homophobia is a phobia. This is a great illustration.

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Philip Gumbs
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Philip Gumbs

Get the facts. Google “BBC six year old UK kids taught to write gay letters.” So many instances in Canada, USA, UK, etc.

Get the facts. Please produce scientific support for “born that way”. Not feelings, please, just cold facts. No such scientific support exists. None whatsoever. The most recent, most comprehensive scientific research is conclusive.

Fact: Anal sex is 30 times more risky than vaginal sex. Fact: 80% gays/lesbians were molested as children. The church must have a compassionate approach. But compassion is not the same as acceptance of lifestyle. Jesus told the woman caught in adultery, “Neither do I condemn thee. Go and sin no more”

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Cynthia Katsarelis
Member

Fact, more heterosexual couples practice anal sex than gay couples. No, we weren't mostly molested as children, but I have seen others spew that fake news. The science that we are born with our sexual orientation is readily available.

So now you're trying to use pseudo-science to justify what Scripture doesn't. 40 years of learned and prayerful discernment, combined with my lived experience, is not going to be overturned by these lame excuses.

When I think about the contributions of gay people throughout history, Michelangelo, Leonard Bernstein, Alan Turing, gazillions of artists and musicians, and then look at the ignorance that is required to justify homophobia - I'm going with the talent.

I'd leave it there except you need to know that your language contributes to misery and even death. I'm sorry that it is a problem to accept the diversity of God's Creation, but that's no excuse for spewing words that inflicts pain on others.

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Philip Gumbs
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Philip Gumbs

So you don’t “spew”. Only those who disagree with you “spew”.

“An estimated 90% of men who have sex with men and as many as 5% to 10% of sexually active women engage in receptive anal intercourse” WebMed. (It could be as high as 30 percent of heterosexuals.)

Lawrence S. Mayer, Paul R. McHugh
This report presents a careful summary and an up-to-date explanation of research — from the biological, psychological, and social sciences — related to sexual orientation and gender identity. It is offered in the hope that such an exposition can contribute to our capacity as physicians, scientists, and citizens to address health issues faced by LGBT populations within our society.
Some key findings:
Part One: Sexual Orientation
● The understanding of sexual orientation as an innate, biologically fixed property of human beings — the idea that people are “born that way” — is not supported by scientific evidence.

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Philip Gumbs
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Philip Gumbs

The New Atlantis
Sexuality and Gender
While there is evidence that biological factors such as genes and hormones are associated with sexual behaviors and attractions, there are no compelling causal biological explanations for human sexual orientation. While minor differences in the brain structures and brain activity between homosexual and heterosexual individuals have been identified by researchers, such neurobiological findings do not demonstrate whether these differences are innate or are the result of environmental and psychological factors.
● Longitudinal studies of adolescents suggest that sexual orientation may be quite fluid over the life course for some people, with one study estimating that as many as 80% of male adolescents who report same-sex attractions no longer do so as adults...
● Compared to heterosexuals, non-heterosexuals are about non-heterosexuals are about two to three times as likely to have experienced childhood sexual abuse.

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Cynthia Katsarelis
Member

Scientific American "Beware Bogus Theories of Sexual Orientation," 12/1/16 https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/beware-bogus-theories-of-sexual-orientation/

The New Atlantis is not a peer-reviewed journal. So again, you are using extremely sketchy sources to confirm your bias. And don't throw Johns Hopkins University at me, two of my degrees sport JHU on them.

Again, a really lame excuse to be hateful to others.

Just an update to note that " journal's co-publisher, the Ethics and Public Policy Center (EPPC), “dedicated to applying the Judeo-Christian moral tradition to critical issues of public policy.” That isn't science.

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Philip Gumbs
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Philip Gumbs

Like the true prophets who were despised and killed for their stand for truth so is this bishop. The arguments for SS “marriage” are the supremacy of love, human rights, dignity and consenting adults. “All Love Is Equal” screams the lgbt battle slogan. So you who indignantly support SS “marriage” obviously support polyamorous (group) marriage, parent child “marriage”, brother brother “marriage” (half siblings “marry” in Sweden) as well. To oppose is inherently hypocritical for their arguments are the same. Besides, “Jesus never addressed it”.

Reality check: there’s absolutely no scientific basis for homosexuality. Sorry, but the earth is not flat. Stunned by this but undeterred, lgbt scientists are now declaring that homosexuality and transgenderism are based on feelings that must be honoured above all else.

According to your reasoning, to oppose fornication and adultery is mean and hateful because love is all that matters. Your god is 1 dimensional and anti-biblical

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Bruce Alan Wilson
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Bruce Alan Wilson

All other species that form long-term pairbonds have same-sex couples. How can something be unnatural if it occurs in nature?

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Philip Gumbs
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Philip Gumbs

Many species eat their young offspring. They also mate with them and with siblings. I humbly suggest we don’t derive our cues or norms from the animal kingdom. Interesting to see how many will dislike this....

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Alan Marsh
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Alan Marsh

The knives will soon be plunged into the back of this faithful bishop. And his departure will mark the ultimate, abject failure of TEC to hold and teach the Christian faith.

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David Cranston
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David Cranston

I'm in a committed s-s relationship for the love, commitment, and caring of my partner. Our relationship is not and will never be a sexual relationship. Apparently Bishop Love equates Marriage to allowing and approving a sexual relationship. How very sad. I knew Bishop Love when he was a Priest in our local Episcopal Church. I could read the writing on the wall at the time. It pains me greatly that my Church will now only accept me under certain conditions.

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Ari Wolfe
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Ari Wolfe

Hi David,

Please know that your Church - capital "C" - does not reject you or accept you only conditionally... I am so sad to hear about your experience and that of so many others within your local church or the diocese, and Bishop Love's letter makes me heartsick to read. The vast majority of the Episcopal Church does stand behind you and welcome you, your partner and all LGBTQ people - as evidenced by the recent General Convention, the Presiding Bishop's response to this letter and the many, many welcoming congregations who would be glad to welcome you. I hope you are able to find or have found a loving church community, and know that you are valued for - not in spite of - all of who you are.

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David Cranston
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David Cranston

Thanks Ari. I use to be a die-hard Episcopalian ever since I was born 62 years ago. Same Parish too. 9 years as an Acolyte; 5 years on the Vestry. My Parish was high Church for the first 50 of those 62 years. I absolutely enjoyed singing the Psalms and the procession for the Stations of the Cross every Sunday evening during Lent. I have not looked for another Church because the rites or the service would not feel the same to me. If I lived near the border of a neighboring Episcopal Dioceses I might consider belonging to another Parish. The love for my Church went downhill a bit when the 1928 book of Common Prayer was done away with too. Only a very few Parishes still use the 1928 book of Common Prayer.

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Riley Britton
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Riley Britton

I believe God calls us to love all, but Jesus indicates over and over that marriage is between a man and a woman. That's the way He made us. It is not hatred to believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. Quite the opposite, it is conviction of the heart that leads us to believe that God's plan for marriage is the only one in which fulfillment is found. Kudos to this bishop. We need more like him and maybe the TEC will turn itself around.

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John Cardani-Trollinger
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John Cardani-Trollinger

You, like this bishop, just hide your bigotry and hatred behind a bible. You use the same biblical justification as those did for slavery and persecution of the Jews. Don’t forget, they were all “following the conviction of their heart that led them to believe God’s calling.” Time to evolve or sit down and be quiet. Why is it so important to you what other people do? Are you jealous? You know...i came back to church because i wanted a place to be able to worship. Its insane to me that people like you have such hatred in your hearts.

This has been edited

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Susan Coleman Cohen
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Susan Coleman Cohen

His hatred is not Godly nor is it biblical.

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Philip Gumbs
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Philip Gumbs

Do you believe fornication and adultery are wrong? If you do, the fornicators and adulterers see your “hatred as ungodly and unbiblical”. To oppose something is not necessarily the same as hatred. You oppose your 18 yr old daughter dating a 50 yr old married man. “Mommy, you are so unchristlike and full of hatred”. Really?

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Cynthia Katsarelis
Member

Loving, committed, and faithful LGBTQI couples do not resemble, even remotely, fornicators and adulterers. You seem to be reading the wrong Gospel.

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Joe Wright
Guest

I believe that this is an overreach of the Bishop's authority. He may hold his own (I believe prejudiced) views, but to impose them on all the clergy of the diocese curtails the views of those with dissenting views. Hardly an inclusive attitude. Also, to equate the desires of gay people as the works of the devil is particularly offensive. There were many openly gay people in the 1st century and there is no real evidence of its condemnation. This is a sad day for the inclusiveness of the Episcopal Church.

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Kathleen Speck
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Kathleen Speck

The leadership of the Diocese of Albany continues to live in a fool’s paradise and Satan just may prefer to wear the color purple.

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Brandon L Beck
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Brandon L Beck

This saddens me. I am so thankful for Bishop Curry and the leaders of TEC who have brought forth B012, and I pray that the Bishop of Albany will have the scales fall from his eyes in order to see the way of love in the Jesus moment so that all of Christ's children can know the benefits of marriage in God's church. I am quite sure that I am crafted in the image of God and that my marriage is biblical. I know that Christ would have invited me to follow him then as he has now and that he would all those who seek to push me out to look first at the log in their own eye.

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Joan cC. Oliver
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Joan cC. Oliver

I would ask you, Brandon, on what do you base your assertion that your marriage is Biblical?

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Cynthia Katsarelis
Member

Like mine, our marriages are Biblical because they are based on sacrificial love and they are gifts from God. God created us all in the Image of God and wished that we not be alone. Jesus never spoke on same-sex marriage and Paul only saw marriage as a necessary evil. In the time of Jesus, men could have up to 5 wives and polygamy exists without condemnation throughout the OT. Meanwhile, Jesus did speak about divorce.

There's also David and Jonathan, and the servant that the Centurion loved...

We humans constantly create God in our flawed, and bigoted image, just as our flawed minds and hearts interpret Scripture to mean what they want it to say - it's called confirmation bias. None of the New Testament passages that are used to clobber gay people actually address committed, same-sex couples.

Jesus' most harsh words are for the leadership oppressing others. Bishop Love going on about Satan! It insults me and disparages my marriage.

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Mallory Moench
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Mallory Moench

Brandon, this is Mallory Moench with the Times Union. Would you be willing to share your experience and perspective in an interview with us? If so, what's the best number at which I can reach you?

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Philip B. Spivey
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Philip B. Spivey

"Where is the Love?" --- Roberta Flack

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Kevin Michel
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Kevin Michel

Time for this Bishop to retire quietly to the country with his bitterness, his disdain, and his failure of christian love and charity.

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Henry phillips
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Henry phillips

Marriage between man and woman is biblical, not between same sexes. Episcopal church is twisting scripture and deviates from the bible, read 1 Timothy.

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Cynthia Katsarelis
Member

No it isn't. Read your Bible again. You'll find polygamy that goes unchallenged and prohibitions against divorce... Nothing about committed same-sex couples. Get a coach if you need one to work through the Greek. The clobber passages are not anti-gay, they refer to pagan worship practices and oppressive activities.

1st Timothy is likely pederasty or prostitution. Sorry if you have an awful translation, check out some others.

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Rev. Robert Hensley
Guest

"The arc of history bends toward justice." I would suggest taking advantage of our shared communion status with other denominations while awaiting the next episcopal election in Albany. Sitting bishops and standing committees can take it from there.

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Mallory Moench
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Mallory Moench

Rev. Robert Hensley, this is Mallory Moench with the Times Union. Would you be willing to share your experience and perspective in an interview with us? If so, what's the best number at which I can reach you?

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Prof Christopher Seitz
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Prof Christopher Seitz

Are you suggesting that Love will serve out his term as Bishop in the light of this action by him?

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Kelly Knox
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Kelly Knox

My wife and I were together for 23 years. The happiest day of my life was when we were finally able to be married in 2013. We knew our remaining time together was limited, as she had been diagnosed earlier that year with a very aggressive form of leukemia, so we chose to “elope” to DC, and use a secular celebrant rather than wait for the day that Ohio would allow us to be married in our family parish.

I don’t know if I will ever heal from this loss — or from the deep sense of distrust, betrayal, and “otherness” I feel when I read things like this. Annabelle was my one and only. My soulmate. My priest and my parish have sustained me during my grief, which has been overwhelming at times, but the words of this Bishop, this leader of the church into which I was born — that my love is of the devil and that I must repent — feels mortally wounding. I can’t deal with it. I am too tired. If you can’t love me, then please at least stop hurting me. But if you love me, then please protect me.

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Raya Schweitzer
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Raya Schweitzer

I wish were able to lessen the pain inflicted by this discrimination you lived through, and the reopening of the wounds from this. I can only say that when I see anyone resorting to invoking satan, or saying we are tricked by the great deciever, they lose all credibility with me. On a good day I pity them.
You my friend are awesome, and command much respect from myself and others for being you. We shall overcome.

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Miranda Hassett
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Miranda Hassett

Kelly, I’m so sorry that your grief and hurt are stirred up by this bishop’s words and actions, and that the other comment in response to your reflection appears more interested in justifying Bishop Love than receiving your pain. Speaking for myself, I am so grateful for the LGBTQ+ Episcopalians who have borne with our church through our many years of struggle and confusion; you have enriched our live together in so many ways.

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Kelly Knox
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Kelly Knox

Thank you, Miranda. There have been times in the recent past when I have been lulled into a sense of safety. Bishop Love serves as an important reminder that sexual minorities will never be safe in my lifetime, not even among professed followers of our brother Jesus. I’m sorry that my love has been the source of such conflict within the church, and sorrier still that the conflict has pushed away so many people who have felt wounded and excluded and who could greatly benefit from a modicum of compassion and pastoral care. Being told that our love is evil is hurtful to the core. Thank you for responding from a place of compassion and mercy.

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Prof Christopher Seitz
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Prof Christopher Seitz

"...the Bible does not forbid two people of the same sex from loving one another in the sense of caring deeply or having a strong sense of affection for one another. Strong friendships are a blessing and gift. As already mentioned, God commands us to love one another both male and female. The Bible doesn’t forbid two people of the same sex from sharing a home or life together. It doesn’t forbid two people of the same sex from being legal guardians for one another or health care proxies for one another. All God has said through Holy Scripture regarding relations between two men or two women is that they should not enter into sexual relations with one another, and that marriage is reserved for the joining together of a man and woman."

This is the Bishop's statement as written.

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S.R.Price
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S.R.Price

The end conclusion of this line of reasoning is,then,that sexual relations were created for,and only for,the propagation of children and any activity for any other purpose is an abomination,including within the bounds of heterosexual marriage.This the only acceptable sexual arrangement between any couple,LGBTQ or straight not trying to " be fruitful and multiply,is abstinence.So,Professor,are we finally in line with the Vatican on birth control?

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John Wirenius
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John Wirenius

As Cynthia points out, Christopher, you are eliding the most offensive and pain-inflicting portions of Bp. Love’s statement and implying that Kelly’s reaction to the whole is unreasonable. We’ve disagreed with each other here and elsewhere, but I’ve never seen you take that approach before. I’m sorry to see you do so, it isn’t worthy of you.

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Prof Christopher Seitz
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Prof Christopher Seitz

Dear Mr Wirenius, I'd like to tell you that your evaluation of my worth weighs heavy on my mind. It just doesn't. But I promise. You are made worthy by Jesus Christ! Glad to learn you are publishing articles. Go in peace.

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John Wirenius
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John Wirenius

I didn’t think you were unduly burdened by my opinion, Professor Seitz. (And, if we’re being formal, it’s Deacon Wirenius.). Go In Peace, Christopher.

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Prof Christopher Seitz
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Prof Christopher Seitz

God bless you, Deacon Wirenius. Did not know your post. Forgive me.

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Prof Christopher Seitz
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Prof Christopher Seitz

Odd. I was including the section relevant to the comment I was responding to. People need to think before writing. Not worthy? Give me a break.

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John Wirenius
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John Wirenius

You were replying to Kelly, who described as “mortally wounding” the “words of this bishop, this leader of the church into which I was born—that my love is of the devil, and that I must repent” and your reply quoted a different section of the bishop’s letter, with your sole comment reading “This is the bishop’s statement as written.” That is less than honest, and certainly deflection of Kelly’s reaction by citing a less hurtful part of the letter as if it represented the whole.

If you think before you write, and think that approach is worthy of you, so be it.

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Prof Christopher Seitz
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Prof Christopher Seitz

This isn't a genuine exchange of ideas. Let's not fool ourselves. If you believe in the LGBTI+ cause, and all its Christian accommodations, that is the end of the exchange of views. Any effort to try to find a careful and kind Christian response to LGBTI+ people that does not endorse "marriage," even when prominent LGBTI+ folk say this is not what God ordains or allows, must be condemned.

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John Wirenius
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John Wirenius

I haven’t criticized your positionhere, Christopher, though I do not share it. A link to my ATR article on the subject is here: http://www.anglicantheologicalreview.org/static/pdf/articles/wirenius.pdf

I have criticized your placing Kelly in a false light, by misrepresenting the portion of Bp. Love’s letter to which she was reacting—Classic deflection and gaslighting, as I said earlier. You seem to be “speaking the truth in love” by being neither loving nor truthful. Which is why I suggested your initial comment wasn’t worthy of you. I accept your correction that it is.

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Kelly Knox
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Kelly Knox

Thank you, John, for the link to your ATR article. I was especially struck by your discussion of whether SS marriage prohibition has brought results which are consistent with the values of Christianity, as well as the fact that such prohibition has placed great burdens upon LGBT+ persons and not those imposing such discrimination. I think the vast majority of people would balk at the suggestion that their very nature is ungodly and that they should not be afforded the protections and privileges of marriage in this society, but such suggestions about LGBT+ people are reduced to academic fodder. Before I was married, I was not allowed FMLA to care for my spouse, the right to even visit her in the hospital, or the right to put her on my insurance to avoid bankruptcy. I paid $1200 a month for COBRA, and then started depleting my retirement savings to care for her. And then she died. I pray that those who believe these conditions to be just and merciful never have to experience them.

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John Wirenius
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John Wirenius

Kelly, I am so sorry to read of your experience, and the injustice you and your late wife were forced to endure. I join in your prayers, and take the liberty of adding you both to my prayers, for your healing and the repose of Her soul.

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Kelly Knox
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Kelly Knox

Christopher, if I desconstruct your sentence correctly, you say, “Any effort to try to find a careful and kind Christian response to LGBTI+ people that does not endorse “marriage” ... must be condemned.” You are not being careful or kind in your responses, so I am left to think this is what you truly believe to be the right way to respond to those who are hurting and experiencing the ultimate betrayal — that of being rejected from full fellowship and belonging with others. I am truly glad for you that you do not belong to a marginalized group that has had to endure such cruelty. But just as you are convinced of the righteousness of your views, I am equally convinced that God made me the way that I am. I have known this since I was a small child, and it has not changed, despite my very best efforts when younger. I believe now that I was made in the image of God, just like you. But unlike you, I do believe God wants me to be kind and careful with the hearts of others. Peace to you.

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Prof Christopher Seitz
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Prof Christopher Seitz

Peace to you as well. The times are in God's hands. +Love will be removed and B012 will time out. TEC will be seamlessly as you wish. You will be in the majority and are now. God bless. May TEC find its future and return to growth.

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Cynthia Katsarelis
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Thank you, John, for articulating so well the problematic response from Christopher. Kelly, I believe that you have deconstructed Christopher's sentence accurately. It seems to me that he is incapable of acknowledging the hurt and thus coming up with a pastoral response, or exercising restraint.

Acknowledging the hurt would raise uncomfortable questions about decades of identity and investment in portions of his life's work in academia and with the sketchy Anglican Communion Institute. I believe this is a common dynamic with some conservatives, acknowledging the pain would raise difficult questions and cast themselves in a more challenging light. That leaves them insisting that they're right, no matter that their words are bludgeons being used against us.

Our authentic pain and courage in articulating it, as you have, has moved the heart of our church, for that I give thanks. I also admire your charitable response.

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John Wirenius
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John Wirenius

Thank you, Cynthia, and God bless you, Kelly.

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John Wirenius
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John Wirenius

And just to be clear, the section ”relevant to the comment [you were] responding to” isn’t that which you quoted, but “Satan is having a heyday bringing division into the Church over these issues and is trying to use the Church to hurt and destroy the very ones we love and care about by deceiving the leadership of the Church into creating ways for our gay and lesbians brothers and sister to embrace their sexual desires rather than to repent and seek God’s love and healing grace. B012 plays right into this.” Do you think before you write, or do you just not care if you inflict more pain on people by gaslighting them?

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Said Flores
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Said Flores

AMEN and Paul refers not only to Scripture but also nature when stating the homosexual abomination. Everything used against it's design is called a perversion.

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Cynthia Katsarelis
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Not only are you both sadly mistaken, but the viciousness of responding to Kelly's pain with your "views" is also cruel. Said, you are simply way out of line in your interpretation of Scripture. Christopher, you are ignoring the part where Bishop Love says that our sacramental love is the work of Satan.

Kelly, I'm so sorry for your loss and what you've gone through. I've been with my wife for 27 years and our togetherness buffers the hate, I can't imagine going it alone. I'm so glad that you have a supportive priest and parish. You also have the support of the vast majority of the Episcopal Church. I'll lift you up in prayer. Today is one of those milestones in my late father's life and what I know from losing him and Mom is that the love lives on. The Presiding Bishop is right about the power of love and you still have that love, even from beyond the grave. This is a big part of the Good News and we share in it. Peace, blessings, and love.

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Ernest Bowen
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Ernest Bowen

I’m sure the Southern Baptist Church would welcome this Bishop with open arms.

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Val Lord
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Val Lord

There are many here in his diocese who would be happy to accommodate them. He is not at all popular here.

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Stan Runnels
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Stan Runnels

Does Bishop allow for remarriage after divorce?

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Prof Christopher Seitz
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Prof Christopher Seitz

Not with any more enthusiasm than Moses did, as Jesus put it.

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Gregory Orloff
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Gregory Orloff

Doesn't matter how enthusiastic Moses was about it. What matters is what Jesus said about it. Does the bishop comply with Jesus' definitive "no" on the issue. as recorded in the Bible, to which Bishop Love asserts such absolute fidelity?

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Prof Christopher Seitz
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Prof Christopher Seitz

You should know--a cursory, WIKI like study will show you--that the Christian response to marriage breakdown has been multifacted through history.

Surely you don't want to press the analogy between "joyous embrace of LGBT marriage" and the "tragedy of divorce" and how the church has had to deal with this.

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Gregory Orloff
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Gregory Orloff

Never presume another's ignorance, Presbyter Christopher. Contrary to condescending implication, many of us have done much more than cursory "Wiki-like" studies and know full well that Christian responses (plural, hence plurality in teaching and practice) to marriage and marriage breakdown have been multifaceted -- some toeing the line Jesus drew, others doing their best to explain away his words or work around them, a common behavior throughout Christian history not only with how we deal with marriage, but how we deal with money, power, politics, and violence, too. (Compare how Martin of Tours, remember on the church calendar today, rejected military service as incompatible with being a baptized follower of Jesus, and how poorly that stance would be received in many, many quarters today.) Point is, if one is going to claim absolute, literal fidelity to Jesus and the Bible, others are going to expect one to be absolutely, literally faithful to them in all respects.

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Prof Christopher Seitz
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Prof Christopher Seitz

Taking Jesus literally but of course selectively. Nice work.

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