"Intellectually honest opponents of full inclusion need to acknowledge the dismal rates of success of reparative therapy."

To say nothing of the psychological, emotional and spiritual damage that such "therapies" can cause.

-Cullin R. Schooley

However, this is an important and honest admission. I hope it will get wide circulation!

The same can be said about tobacco use. You have to want to change, and a big part is to change your life style. In tobacco, just as stated in the article, one cannot say for sure that they won't go back.

I can name three former homosexuals tht have turned their life around and are going straight....and I don't know that many gays. Sure you can argue that they were not truly gay, but ask them, and they will disagree with you.

But Walter, the people who involve themselves with Exodus are, by definition, those that want to change. So the failure rate of this therapy is incredibly high, even in a group whose members are highly motivated to change.

The significant thing here is that a proponent of "reparative therapy" is admittingthat it doesn't work.

All mainstream professional associations including the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, and the AMerican Academy of Pediatrics agree that reparative therapy is a sham and actually harmful. For example, the APsychA

recommends that ethical practitioners refrain from attempts to change individuals’ sexual orientation, keeping in mind the medical dictum to first, do no harm.

The potential risks of reparative therapy are great, including depression, anxiety and self-destructive behavior...

Proponents of this "therapy" typically rely on discredited pseudo-science and non-mainstream organizations with limited membership such as the American College of Pediatrics, a small group founded by anti-gay crusader George Rekers (he who was caught with a rent-boy -- you cannot make this stuff up).

The science is clear. Being gay is a variant, as natural as being left-handed. The argument really is whether one views it as a pathology, or simply as a bright color on the spectrum of human variation.

You know, like a rainbow?

Susan Forsburg

I can name three former homosexuals tht have turned their life around and are going straight....

Maybe. But would you want your daughter to marry one? Because let me tell you--I've been there, done that, and got the t-shirt--and the heartache.

I'm with Susan. Encourage people to be who they are and to live and love with integrity and fidelity. THOSE are Gospel values.

Then according the proponents they do not accept the credence of the Episcopal Church as laid down in the Articles of Religion, in that man does not have Free Will and those that are Gay are predestined to be Gay for the rest of their mortal life.

Article X. Of Free Will.

The condition of Man after the fall of Adam is such, that he cannot turn and prepare
himself, by his own natural strength and good works, to faith, and calling upon God.
Wherefore we have no power to do good works pleasant and acceptable to God, without
the grace of God by Christ preventing us, that we may have a good will, and working with us, when we have that good will.

Article XVII. Of Predestination and Election

Predestination to Life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby (before the foundations of
the world were laid) he hath constantly decreed by his counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom he hath chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ toeverlastingsalvation, as vessels made to honour. Wherefore, they which
be endued with so excellent a benefit of God, be called according to God's purpose by his
Spirit working in due season: they through Grace obey the calling: they be justified freely:
they be made sons of God by adoption: they be made like the image of his only-begotten
Son Jesus Christ: they walk religiously in good works, and at length, by God's mercy, they
attain to everlasting felicity.

As the godly consideration of Predestination, and our Election in Christ, is full of sweet,
pleasant, and unspeakable comfort to godly persons, and such as feel in themselves the
working of the Spirit of Christ, mortifying the works of the flesh, and their earthly mem-
bers, and drawing up their mind to high and heavenly things, as well because it doth greatly
establish and confirm their faith of eternal Salvation to be enjoyed through Christ, as
because it doth fervently kindle their love towards God: So, for curious and carnal persons,
lacking the Spirit of Christ, to have continually before their eyes the sentence of God's
Predestination, is a most dangerous downfall, whereby the Devil doth thrust them either
into desperation, or into wrethchlessness of most unclean living, no less perilous than
desperation.

Furthermore, we must receive God's promises in such wise, as they be generally set forth to
us in Holy Scripture: and, in our doings, that Will of God is to be followed, which we
have expressly declared unto us in the word of God.

By the same logic, Walter, you are not predestined to be left-handed for the rest of your mortal life. And "reparative therapy" for lefthandedness was, of course, attempted as well, and for centuries - before people realized it was both futile and pointless.

(P.S.: There's no reason why "reparative therapists" are bound to accept the credence of the 39 Articles as you understand them. Generally speaking, they are not Episcopalians - and furthermore they charge for their services. The point being made here is that they are quacks and should be put out of business because they don't succeed in providing what they offer - not that they aren't "believers" as you understand the term.)

Actually, back in the days of sinisterphobia, lefties were regularly converted to use their right hands in writing, however awkwardly. One poor second-grade classmate whom the nuns berated for "trying to be different" or "showing off" learned to switch. Dunno if that was why he stuttered.

Wanting to do what was right, I entered a heterosexual marriage that worked, for about ten years. We'd thought we'd always be friends if the sex thing didn't pan out, but it didn't and we weren't. In such arrangements, all the burden is on the wife to accommodate and to keep up appearances. After another eight years of marriage counseling and counterproductive co-existence, she opted out. That autumn, I met a young guy at Integrity. We fit together as naturally as my marriage had been problematic. Going on twenty-nine years together now.

Before meeting my wife-to-be, I had therapy with a Jungian analyst who told me that homosexuality was a funny kind of half-life, and if I kept my thoughts and wrists straight, I could learn to live like the majority. But in the effort, I had to suppress half my social impulses. Coming out felt like living fully.

Point: Yes, behavior can be controlled and desires subordinated. It makes society look more orderly (uniform). Is it worth the effort when it succeeds (endures), and the trauma when it fails?

The difference is that "reparative therapy" promises a change in sexual orientation, not "control" or "subordination." See the Alan Chambers quote above.

And, according to the link above, the American Psychiatric Associations says that "In the last four decades, 'reparative' therapists have not produced any rigorous scientific research to substantiate their claims of cure. Until there is such research available, [the American Psychiatric Association] recommends that ethical practitioners refrain from attempts to change individuals’ sexual orientation, keeping in mind the medical dictum to first, do no harm. The potential risks of reparative therapy are great, including depression, anxiety and self-destructive behavior, since therapist alignment with societal prejudices against homosexuality may reinforce self-hatred already experienced by the patient."

Other organizations express similar objections.

bsnyder, in case you forgot this is the Episcopal Cafe, not Presybterian Cafe. We as Episcopalians do not accept predestination but rather believe in Free Will.

As the godly consideration of Predestination, and our Election in Christ, is full of sweet,
pleasant, and unspeakable comfort to godly persons, and such as feel in themselves the
working of the Spirit of Christ, mortifying the works of the flesh, and their earthly mem-
bers, and drawing up their mind to high and heavenly things, as well because it doth greatly
establish and confirm their faith of eternal Salvation to be enjoyed through Christ, as
because it doth fervently kindle their love towards God

Yes, Walter, knowing the Love of God in being made gay IS like this!

What it's NOT like: tobacco use. Psycho-actively addictive, and pathogenic (including carcinogenic).

"and I don't know that many gays"

I believe you.

JC Fisher