It's always been a tough call for me too. Find myself much prefering "God Bless America" or "O Beautiful for Spacious Skies" than our militaristic National Anthem with all those "bombs bursting in air." But, on balance, I think it's OK to pray for, and sing about, one's country.

I completely agree with the above comment. Although, I don't do as much for Memorial Day (other than pray for the country and those who lost lives), the 4th of July tends to be a bigger deal in my parish. I completely shy away from patriotic songs during the liturgy. The flag does not come out, as that's not our focus in the time of worship. We do sing "Lift Every Voice and Sing" sometimes, and once the liturgy is over and the dismissal said, usually America the Beautiful is sung for those who want to stick around.

I think my general attitude is that there is a real temptation in our culture to make patriotism a religion, and that really does not need to be the focus of our time with God. But, prayers are always appropriate.

There was a church in Wyoming that pledged allegiance to the flag (US)A and then to the cross every Sunday. I was shocked - it took a long time for the next clergy persons to end that practice. I am opposed to national flags in church but not to praying for all who have given their lives for causes of peace - military personnel and objectors to war. Growing up I did not realize Memorial Day was for war dead -- as our family celebrated by decorating all the family graves and having a giant family reunion at the cemetery -- which as children we found quite exciting - racing all over reading the headstones and looking for the ones of young children or ones with angels or other figures. Now I know differently but wonder how many really think it is other than a day off to start summer? As to patriotic music in church - I have mixed feelings about it. Stirring up "party spirit' seems like a bad idea yet I usually go with the worship committee and what they choose within limits - I know - wimpy.

I think it is fine to offer the welfare of the nations to God --but to sing a national anthem (medley or not) at the offertory is tragic --in the same way that lifting a tray of money and having folks stand at the presentation of that plate instead of for the bread and wine is tragic. If, or perhaps because the church works in the language of signs and symbols (including musical offerings) which become incarnate in the lives of the people, we should be vigilant in what we do and what we pray.

Here, on the Cheyenne River Reservation in South Dakota, there are many cultural expressions that give heart to the people. But it seems that there is a general knowledge of different "altars" --that some things are cultural, some things are from different faith traditions, some things are Christian --and it is not healthy or good for the hearts of the people when those altars get confused.

I see the wisdom in that. I think the national anthem and that kind of offering is to a different "altar." To mix it in to Christian liturgy can be done, but it should be done with great fore-thought as to what is being offered, when it is being offered, and why.

Me, I prefer the same order to give voice to national concerns that I follow at a funeral --eulogies and remembrances and all that (national anthems etc), to be offered before the opening acclamation and collect. And of course we give thanks for those who have offered their lives in the prayers of the people.

Respectfully submitted,
margaret watson

We included "Eternal Father strong to save" in the communion hymns (we've got a lot of ret. navy and marines) and ended with "God of our Fathers". Both hymns seem to me more prayer-like than triumphant.

I'm more bothered by the "exclusive" language than the patriotic part!

The congregation knows I'm liberal, progressive, gay, etc., but I'm also patriotic. It's not about "we're more blessed 'cause we're better," but "we are called to be responsive/responsible with the many blessings we have."

It's not about being a "Christian nation," but about being Christian in this nation.

I have mixed feelings on this one, especially when churches process the flags and they lead the processional cross into church. The flag comes before the cross? The message that one sends cannot be all good.

Still, I suppose it helps retain the meaning of the holiday. More and more one hears wishes for a happy Memorial Day--which strikes me as a spectacularly inappropriate wish. Human loss and suffering should not engender happiness.

Eric Bonetti

You know - the National Anthem is a pretty tricky thing with the text and all (not to mention it's apparently one of the most difficult national anthems to sing because of range and intervals - the organist has got to think of this, you know!) - but at the same time, the Episcopal Church in America was born because of a national split, was it not?

Like many others who have commented, I've always made a bigger deal out of July 4 than Memorial Day (which would always have been overridden by Pentecost in the parishes I have grown up and worked in). That being said, rather than ever singing the Star-Spangled Banner during the liturgy (in which really there is no appropriate place liturgically to place it), I play it as a postlude - and usually people end up singing along, but in my head it ends up being more of an afterthought than the centerpiece of the liturgy.

Couple of notes: Memorial Day was created to remember the Civil War dead and expanded in time. Veterans' day tried to bring it up to more recent wats, but never took away the luster of what morphed into the beginning of summer weekend.

In any case Pentecost trumps any civil holiday.

@Chris Epting: "the bombs bursting in air" is what Francis Scott Key saw while sitting as a prisoner on a British ship while Ft. McHenry was bombarded during the War of 1812. There is a bouy in the harbor marking the spot and you can easily sail to it. So the phrase is about "hope through the night" not glorification of militarism.

I have mixed feelings about it, so my compromise is that if a patriotic hymn is in the hymnal, we can use it. That being said, we didn't use any patriotic hymns yesterday because Pentecost is a major feast. Instead, we included special prayers for veterans in the prayers of the people. No one complained, and a couple of vets actually thanked me for remembering Memorial Day in the prayers.

I don't have mixed feelings about this. I think it's a spectacularly bad idea. What I might do confronted with a congregation that had a long tradition of such things, I can't tell you for sure, but that doesn't change my opinion of the practice. I am much more comfortable mixing God and state in secular patriotic celebrations than I am with bringing particular national identities into a syncretic relationship with a faith community and its worship.

As with many things, I think it depends.

It depends on the context and where it's placed in the service. It depends upon, say, whether it's also Pentecost. It depends upon pastoral concerns; are there lots of veterans in the congregation for whom this means a great deal?

It depends upon the traditions of the parish. If this is something that's always been done and the rector feels it needs changing, has there been preparation for the change?

Perhaps it depends upon the attitude with which they are sung--though I wouldn't want to presume to know the proper attitude. There's a spirit of triumphalism that can be present, to be sure. Can there also be a spirit of triumphalism in saying we're not going to sing any patriotic songs?

It sounds like one of the issues is the fear that singing these songs sends a message about support for particular actions or policies of the government; in which case, is there a way to tease out those two things?

In any event, it seems appropriate on Memorial Day Sunday to offer the Prayer for Heroic Service from the BCP (p. 839) and the Prayer for those in the Armed Forces of our Country (p 823) as a way of acknowledging this day.

Laura Toepfer

Here at Cornell, its not only Pentecost and Memorial Day weekend, but Commencement for over 5000 students. Because we are an international community, we do not focus on Memorial Day, sticking to Pentecost hymns

But it has been a tradition here at the Episcopal Church at Cornell to sing 'God be with you til we meet again' this Sunday.

That is until this year....when, at the announcement time, one of our graduating seniors raised her hand and said, Clark, please, please, could we not sing that hymn--I can't take it! Okay, I said, would you like to pick another? Five minutes later, and some stalling on my part, and she had picked 460, "Alleluia, Sing to Jesus". We sang it with gusto and tears in our eyes, and the Pentecost spirit blew where it wanted, thanks to a brave young soul!

I don't have a problem with 'faith' songs about asking God for blessing the country. NO to the national anthem, that is a secular song...now if it was more like "God save the Queen" it might be appropriate but no just because the words glorify war and we shouldn't do that in God's house. I wouldn't want the liturgy dominated by such songs either, perhaps just the recessional and NO FLAG parades...the flag needs to just sit where it is and listen to the liturgy LOL. The cross is the only banner to lead the procession.

Although Memorial Day is definitely trumped by Pentecost in our parish, and think that a certain amount of patriotism is fine, so long as it isn't confused with nationalism. One reflects responsibility and duty, the other is idolatry. We do not live in times where the prevailing culture embraces "My country, right or wrong." Many of our patriotic songs were penned during times when staying alive meant adopting that attitude. My favorite patriotic song is "America the Beautiful," precisely because of the subsequent verses that include thoughts like "God mend thine every flaw."

Pentecost trumps Memorial Day, for me. So yesterday, we sang Pentecost hymns, not patriotic hymns. We did offer prayers for the armed forces during the announcement time (not the prayers of the people because we had a baptism, so we didn't have regular prayers of the people). On the Sunday closest to July 4, we often choose hymns such as "God of our Fathers" or "Eternal Father, strong to save" - to me, this is appropriate because they are hymns. And in the sermon on that day, I often (not always) reflect on the meaning and duties of Christian freedom. I don't have a problem on that one July Sunday ending the liturgy with "America the Beautiful," but I would not sing the Star Spangled Banner during a liturgy. To me that would feel like swearing allegiance to an earthly kingdom rather than the kingdom of God. The message of allegiance to America doesn't need reinforcing - it's the kingdom of God that is counter-cultural. Oh, and yes, we also sing "America the Beautiful" to end our Thanksgiving service, which we celebrate jointly with a neighboring synagogue. It's a beautiful way we can come together with our Jewish neighbors to give thanks for one heritage we share.

Susan Snook

Churches are like foreign embassies in this culture. Once you step into the sacred space you assume that the ground on which you stand is no longer the USA, but the Commonwealth of God. One does enter with his or her national consciousness, but it is the common consciousness as children of God that holds us together. Since it is the cross and not the flag that signals our church buildings, I would not endorse singing national hymns of any nation - save the Commonwealth of God.

Respectfully,
Paul Fromberg

After the collect at Morning Prayer today I ended the prayers with these words:

We remember all who have died at the hands of those
acting in our name.
We remember all who have died following the orders of those
speaking in our name.

As to the National Colors in Church: Sure: folded and in the alms bason on the 4th of July.

Pepper Marts, Colonel, USAF (Retired)

It depends on the song, and it's context. There was a church just outside Austin that used to use some patriotic song (I forget which - not the Star Spangled Banner) at the offertory, and I found that grotesque. But something else in another part of the service - God Bless America, or I Vow to Thee My Country* - sure.

*the British bishop who forbade this song in the grounds that it places country above God simply cannot read very well

Re: the US flag in church
We processed the national flag side-by-side with the Episcopal flag when I was a kid, and they were put in stands right outside the choir. I never found it distracting or even particularly noticeable - after all, it was the processional cross we saluted by bowing as it passed by, not either flag.

I'm in favor of a reappropriation of patriotism by liberals - not to try to compete with the Tea Party, but to show that their version is not the default position. Patriotism, in a balanced form, is a virtue. Progressive disdain for patriotism and patriots is not any more attractive than the wild-eyed fanatic devotion of the Right, IMNSHO.

Although I'm a "maybe" on the patriotic hymns, I'm definitely a "no" when it comes to having national flags in the sanctuary. A flag is a purely nationalistic symbol, and it's not appropriate in a place symbolizing the reign of God.

Our rector chooses the hymns, but last year she was absent on the Sunday closest to Veterans' Day. Our organist played "My Country Tis of Thee" and, if they could, our military veterans and their families would have carried him on their shoulders. Later, I asked why we no longer sing the patriotic songs that are in the hymnal, and was told, "We're really not supposed to, because they're not about God." Please tell me what's wrong with "God of Our Fathers" or the Navy Hymn? I don't think either of them glorifies war.

All Saints of the Berkshires resolved the issue by singing Pentecost-appropriate hymns and having a multi-talented choir member play a medley of the military "signature tunes" for the postlude. His instrument of choice was the all American harmonica. Nary a dry eye in the congregation.

I have problems with our national anthem whether sung in church or without. It was written in the context of war, and therefore is more about war than peace. In times of war, all peoples seem to claim that God is on their side. Christians always should be wary of such claims. Moreover, the separation of church and state is, I think, good for both state and church, and our present anthem fails to maintain that separation. (This notion seems to be a minority view of late.)

I see no reason not to celebrate our Republic in church simply as something to be thankful for. Last year, for a contest, I wrote a candidate national anthem that attempts to celebrate our nation without celebrating war and without arrogant invocation of God. You can find it here.

I agree with Paul Fromberg. We did nto sing a single patriotic hymn yesterday - ESPECIALLY not yesterday. It would have trumped the message of Pentecost which is, among other things, that because the Holy Spirit has been poured out, Christ Jesus is present and know-able by the whole world and everyone in it all the time - no distinctions - so there ARE no longer any "special" nations, but only multiple places where God's people tell the good news in word and in their lives - and praise the living God - We prayed for military dead and their families during the prayers of the people -along with all our other concerns...

So many comments here make one feel as if honoring those who died fighting to defend the freedoms of our country would somehow distract from Christian worship. I am listening to Vin Sculley mix some beautiful memorial day tributes into the Dodgers-Brewers game and doing so in a way that enhances the value of both the day and the game. I see no reason why honoring those who gave everything in service of their country should diminish in any way the the celebration of Pentecost. Indeed, if both are done in sincerity and with at least a minimal amount of liturgical skill I see no reason why the combination would not add to the meaning of the service as a whole.

To everyone who, when speaking about liturgy, music, or liturgical music, asks, "Well, what's wrong with xyz?" I'm going to turn right around and ask you, "Well, what's right about it? What about it is the cream of the crop? Sell it, let's hear it." Seriously, that question gets under my skin. Anyway, moving on.

There's nothing wrong with hymns that speak to a longing for our families, friends, and even nation to be blessed and guided. On days of national importance, when not superseded by a major solemnity, sing "God of our fathers" or "My country 'tis of thee" (particularly the last verse), "Eternal Father, strong to save", or what have you. But Church is no place to hawk about how special we are, but rather to give thanks for how lucky we have been, and pray that those blessings we have received be showered upon other nations as well.

When asked by a veteran why there weren't more patriotic hymns in our Pentecost liturgy I replied that a church feast day trumps a national holiday. We did sing #718 God of our Fathers, Whose Almighty Hand as a closing hymn...the hymn tune felt stirring, patriotic, and appropriate. The text of the hymn seemed to ride the delicate balance of finding courage in resisting sin, casting our lots with our chosen nation, and carefulness in use of power.

In terms of the homily I found myself in the tension of knowing that we must name and honor our veterans who died in battle, yet also preach a message of peace and God's love for all. It was a fitting segue for us to delve into the subject of sin and evil in our midst, that not all spirits are Holy, and that we must always be discerning which leader's command we follow.

I echo Paul Fromberg. A big reason not to sing patriotic songs in church is so we experience the juxtaposition of our belonging to the Body of Christ and our situation in a particular country. Our allegiance to the Commonwealth of God, as he puts it, may cause us to critique policies, attitudes, and practices of the country we live in, and to embody alternatives as we are able.

A related question: How is it that some Christians have come to expect that our liturgies should celebrate our national identity?

Respectfully,
Beth Reed

I vote YAY, but I also can see that it would depend on the particular song as well. This last Sunday, Pentecost, Memorial Day Weekend 2012, our Sunday School youth showed that "speaking in other tongues" can mean using sign language too. They sang and signed to "God Bless America" for the recessional hymn. https://www.facebook.com/editprofile.php?sk=picture#!/photo.php?v=10150935075857801&set=o.395206055639&type=2&theater

In New England, the appropriate Memorial Day hymn should be “See you in September”. Most of my folks disappear for the Cape or mountains this weekend and don’t notice what we sing. Fortunately, with three baptisms we had a crowded church with all Pentecost hymns. This coming weekend we will mix Christianity with nationalism as Old North welcomes the local British community to celebrate the Queen’s Diamond Jubilee. I find that a sign of Christ’s reconciliation that a church famous for betraying the crown, now celebrates it.

We mix church and state all the time at Old North and try to do it both with a sense of humor and with a prophetic voice. If we banned patriotic songs from church, how many of the Psalms would we need to cut out of the bible?

Steve Ayres

A few years ago, I got after my rector for prayers for the local National Guard unit. Now, I didn't have a problem w/ praying for the persons in the NG, but my (HUGE!) problem was that the unit name included the word "Artillery".

People, even in uniform, Yes. Praying for GUNS? No way.

JC Fisher

As several have said before, the problem isn't so much patriotism as it is identity. This is the central problem with singing the National Anthem precisely because it isn't just a patriotic song but a signifier of allegiance. There are two parts baked into it that make it more troubling than others: 1) The first verse we all know is a description of hope in the midst of battle, so the war images are undeniable and 2) we have rules as Americans to how we interact with it, including standing, removing hats, placing a hand over our heart, turning toward the flag, all of which demonstrate a devotion and allegiance of support to that national identity.

For me, this is deeply troubling in the context of worship, whose primary marker is the worship of our GOD and especially on the high holy day second only to Easter. The day in which we celebrate the Spirit's movement toward unity and communication! Didn't we just read that Acts story?

Lastly, I am new to my parish and had the Star-Spangled Banner inserted into the offertory without my knowledge, a choir member invited everyone to stand, and I hadn't quite finished setting the table. Because of those customs I listed above, I didn't feel I could walk down from the altar. It totally hijacked Pentecost.

Patriotic fair isn't my bag, but it has its place. The National Anthem, however, does not.

"Our allegiance to the Commonwealth of God, as he puts it, may cause us to critique policies, attitudes, and practices of the country we live in, and to embody alternatives as we are able."

Beth, exactly which part of that do you believe is incompatible with singing patriotic songs, or patriotism in general? Patriotism is not the jingoistic, my-country-right-or-wrong sort of blind allegiance some posters here may believe, but entails the very sort of critique you mention.

"A related question: How is it that some Christians have come to expect that our liturgies should celebrate our national identity?"

Because it's part of our identity. And just as other aspects of our identity make their way into the liturgy of the Episcopal Church, it's reasonable that expressions of our national identity do so as well.

"People, even in uniform, Yes. Praying for GUNS? No way."

Well, your rector wasn't praying for the guns, JC, but the people whose unit she named, which happens to include the word "artillery." Just as if she were to offer a prayer for the members of, say, a group of X-ray technicians she wouldn't be praying for the X-ray machines themselves.

The first Senior Warden of Trinity Episcopal Church, Upper Marlboro, MD was Dr. William Beanes, the man whom Francis Scott Key went to retrieve from the British. We do not sing the Star Spangled Banner on Memorial Day or the 4th of July. We did do a play about our church's relationship to the National Anthem for our 200th anniversary. We sang it the end of the play. Got a standing ovation.

Bill Bonwitt

Does anyone know if the parishes in Taiwan, Haiti, Ecuador, Columbia, Venezuela, Honduras and the Dominican Republic sing patriotic songs on their national holidays?

If you can't see the qualitative difference between a piece of medical technology and a cannon firing explosive projectiles (at other human beings) BillD... O_o

JC Fisher

So you think that if I pray for X-ray technicians I really *am* praying for X-ray machines? If we can't pray for Artillery units, I guess praying for service members in the Navy or the Air Force is right out, because following your reasoning we would actually praying for warships and bombers.

Bill, I would like to believe your expansive definition of patriotism, and in theory, I do. In practice, I don’t think people who critique entrenched ideas and practices of our country (for example, early participants in the civil rights movement or antiwar protesters) are considered to be as patriotic as those who don’t.

The bigger issue in the current discussion is where we express and deepen our patriotism by singing patriotic songs. I think our liturgies are not appropriate for that. I think that civic entities can hold their own “liturgies” (observances, parades, meetings) and that people can express and nurture patriotism there. If such observances or participation in them are lacking, I would say that people who are concerned can create more or different observances and/or encourage more participation in such observances. In other words, lack of ways or places to feel patriotic by singing such songs may be problems, but Christian liturgies are not the place to solve them.

I think that in the US context, it is wrong to sing almost all national songs in church.

American exceptionalism is the reason. There is a strand of thought in our cultural and religious DNA that God has blessed America, that God wants America to be a light to the nations ... and that we have the right to nudge other countries and other cultures into doing things our way. Forcefully nudge, if necessary.

The worst example of American exceptionalism was on display during the Republican primaries. Whatever they said on foreign policy was, in my assessment, anti-Christian to its core. The candidates acted as if belligerence should be our core foreign policy value, and that to not be belligerent was to be weak. I do not say anti-Christian as an ad hominem attack. I say anti-Christian because that attitude that we should be belligerent, that we have the right to be belligerent, and that we must be belligerent, opposes Christ's teachings of turn the other cheek and the last will be first.

Christians should oppose that any where they can. Paul (or someone) actually calls us to be in this world, but not of it. In real life, I think we can and we should be patriots. In a country which was less obsessed with the notion of being specially blessed, maybe. In this country, I will oppose patriotic or national songs. I make an exception for Lift Every Voice and Sing because it was written to describe the experience of some of the last among us - and in the Kingdom, they will be first.

I, like some of the others here, am not a peace Christian. We can and should pray for members of the military. We can and should pray for their protection. I think we can pray for the successful conclusion of wars that are justifiable, and I think that the war in Afghanistan and the intervention in Libya, for example, can be justified. However, Christ, who told us to turn the other cheek, would also have us pray for the safety of our adversaries. Christ loves our soldiers' opponents on the battlefield as much as He loves our soldiers. Christians serving in the military have to be aware of that. So, praying for members of our military in religious settings is a must. So is praying for all combatants, and all civilians in the crossfire. Patriotic songs as part of the liturgy, no. This may be a hard line to draw, but that's what I'd do.

JCF - XX Artillery division or whatever is just the unit name, though, so you're not praying for their weapons directly. I don't approve of blessings of weapons or warships myself, though.