I believe our churches (as in the body of Christ) are as credible as we make them, despite ourselves and our own vision...Let us all have God's vision and truly love one another as Christ loves us ... in and through our faults, sins and disfunctions... as we seek to journey together, esp. journeying with Jesus, and following Him. Lord, help us and have mercy on us all to do Your will.

I think TEC's history and stasis of liturgical forms (mentioned here as "stately") is the principle idolatry it has to face- even on this blog, I have never seen as much light/heat generated as when we mention changing something to the way we worship.

Quite literally, where our treasure is, there our heart will be also. The Episcopal parish I was a part of until recently just spent 50,000 dollars on new needlepoint kneelers, even though the ones we had been using worked just fine (and the evening low church service doesn't use them at all). This kind of thing is not sustainable. Now, beauty is nonegotiable, but this same parish refuses to make needed changes to the language of the liturgy, for example, out of a perceived deference to tradition, and continues to create a safe space for LGBT bigotry by a very week affirmation of general convention, even though this parish is in the buckle of the Bible belt, is very large and influential, and has a responsibility to do more.

TEC's obsession with stateliness and tradition is killing it institutionally- it is collapsing under its own weight- and I don't want to see this happen because it is also a very grace filled church that does much good in the world. We have to find a way forward that keeps the best of the past in a slim downed way, while boldly transitioning from America's church of priviledge to one of her clearest expressions of what it means to be a follower of Jesus. God knows, that is more important than kneelers.

What about the needleworkers that got an exciting commission and made some money? Evangelicals would have blown the same money chasing down bad songs and flashy sound/light systems, or locked down, sexless ski trips for their indifferent youth groups.

Lots of idolatry is going on, and most of it is because you or I think we have the solution, think we have the answer, and if everyone would just listen to you or me, and do what you or I want, then God's gonna come on through and the Church is renewed, Hallelurrryah! Nope. No one person has the answers here, neither you or I. I know your concerns, for I shared them for years and felt alienated from the Church because of it at times (and still do at times). Josh, the reason I sometimes disagree with you so vehemently is that I've walked the path you're walking, and once I "got what I want", well, I found it wanting, vacuous, empty and somehow lonely and a bit pathetic. I'm saying I was in a community that made the changes you propose, felt "exciting and new" and all the rest, and then, well...nothing really changed. It was a knowing that we were playing church, that we were making it up as we go along, and that there was something inauthentic about our expressions that were like a mansion on the sand. They still worship in that way, in that place, a faithful remnant holding on, a welcoming and loving bunch but whose liturgy is perhaps too expressive of just that community's conclusions and does not draw nearly enough upon the living well of our religion to keep it deep and resonant with something bigger and grander than itself. It looks and feels as if there is a remarkable lack of faith that we have been handed a treasure, and so the question becomes, "why bother?"

Graft onto and prune away, yes. Just be careful you don't wind up trying to plant an altogether new tree, for such a planting is not up to us. The idol of exciting and new is just as dangerous as the idol of sentimentality, recent memory and the personally comfortable.

Thanks for your concern, Clint. You highlight the very real choice the Church has to make between security or transformation. If things were all well and dandy in our world- I would agree with you. Stability is a good thing, sometimes, but not now. Our civilization is in a state of tremendous spiritual crisis, and if we as the Church refuse to learn how to let go we will not be able to respond to this pain effectively. I actually do think that it is our responsibility to plant new trees (be fruitful and multiply, and tend the garden), even as trees that are not bearing fruit are to be lovingly cut down. There is much pain associated with living as part of Creation- especially the pain associated with death and birth-which God Herself in Christ is all too familiar with. It is God's job to start Creation, end Creation, and work with us through Creation, but sometimes, as Rabbi Heschel said, when we can't feel the Spirit move, it may be time for us to move the Spirit!

If ever in our history there was such a time, it is now.

With all due respect, as a twenty-something I feel roughly the opposite. I came to TEC from a non-liturgical Christian tradition about six months ago, having been away from God for several years. The liturgical tradition of the church was not a stumbling block; rather, it was one of the things that really drew me in. Granted, I had a close friend as guide, but I mostly taught myself about the liturgy, especially through the use of the Daily Office.

Please, please, please, don't assume that "those under 40" automatically want "contemporary" services (contemporary, may I ask, to *when* exactly?) or that we can't be asked to do a general confession, or that the words "Christ" or "sin" will drive us away.

The reason every mainline denomination has been losing members is that the church is becoming de-institutionalized. Thank God. Being Christian *should be* a counter-cultural choice, not a default; that implies greater commitment. Watering down our practices and theology on the basis of an idea of what young people care about is a step in the wrong direction. Taking strong stands for social justice on issues that young people actually care about (marriage equality, environmental issues, etc. etc.) is the best thing we can do, and it's one of the things that makes me proud of TEC.

Greg Johnston (added by ~ed.)

And the traditional liturgy should continue to be a part of TEC, for exactly the reasons you mention. As I have said before, I too am nourished by the traditional liturgy (when it uses egalitarian language) but I recognize that you and I are in the minority for our age group. Its not just people our age- I am tired of seeing everyone, older folks included, coming to Table looking like their cat just died. The Episcopal Church in general needs a colonic.

But the changes we need to make as the Church Universal are even more drastic than that. I would like to see TEC be a leader in that transformation, because it has the grace to lead, but the stateliness fetish has got to go, if it is to wind up rather than wind down into a decreasingly populated Living History exhibit.

I think that people who search for religion are a minority in our age group in general, and then, out of these seekers, those who seek a liturgical tradition are about an even match for those who do not. I do not think we must try too hard to bring in those who really have no interest in those things which are hallmarks of our very religion, just be welcoming and informed for all comers and questioners, and realize that we are but one way of being Christian. I'm all for freshening up and what have you, for this certainly can be done. However all stately all the time is frankly exhausting. But stately done right at the right time in the liturgy, without fuss or pretense, is frankly thrilling. The most high church Anglicans I know actually have fun with it, giggle at themselves, smile and are warm as they doff their birettas and parade around a smoky, fragrant church, as they ring bells and bow, as they clothe their Lady statue till She's dressed to kill and aren't shy or afraid to do it up right. It's kinda like a white version of the black ladies with their church hats and grand entrances, and you know that champagne brunch after High Mass with the Bishop is an affair not to be missed!
Josh, I just don't feel like you're having any fun. I don't feel like you're around people who know how to have fun with Church, who know how to smile joyously, basking in that ancient, glorious glow like lions in the sun. I've seen waaaaayyy too many Episcopal churches that are having no fun because they don't know how to make it all cook. But it can be done, and I've been there too, drunken late night hymn sings and all. Sometimes my boyfriend and I burn a little frankincense around the house because it smells like our other home, where our heart is too.

Heh, Clint, you make me smile. My wife is a thurifer and a verger. I do the barbeque. On a Sunday night we may both smell of smoke but hers is nicer. :-)

Greg said, "Being Christian *should be* a counter-cultural choice" which reminds me of the book by the physicist Richard Feynman, what do you care what other people think?" At some level, the best thing that can happen to Christianity is to disestablish it from the culture. Put on your sandal, say your message, and see where you go!

Heh, Clint, you make me smile. My wife is a thurifer and a verger. I do the barbeque. On a Sunday night we may both smell of smoke but hers is nicer. :-)

Greg said, "Being Christian *should be* a counter-cultural choice" which reminds me of the book by the physicist Richard Feynman, what do you care what other people think?" At some level, the best thing that can happen to Christianity is to disestablish it from the culture. Put on your sandal, say your message, and see where you go!

Susa Forsburg

I am grateful that you have a home that is a blessing, Clint. Like you said, you have seen way too many that do not know how to have fun. It is these that I am concerned with. I just left my parish over my inability to experience blessing, after sticking it out for over a year- of course there are only 2 or 3 other options here. In my former home, there were hundreds of Episcopal parishes, that combined ancient and modern in nourishing ways. This, I think, is the future.

"...I am tired of seeing everyone, older folks included, coming to Table looking like their cat just died."

If this is an observation of yours about how people look when they come up for Communion, might I suggest you try not looking at them? People are very vulnerable at the rail, and in general it's a good idea not to be scrutinizing them, much less critiquing their demeanor. I know that stopping paying attention to other communicants on their way to, from, or at the altar rail was a blessing for me.

Josh - when you say the "stateliness fetish" has to go, that's exactly how I feel.

Again, that doesn't mean we need to tear up all the '82 Hymnals. We don't need to change the way everyone worships overnight. We need room for experimentation imo.

I do not agree that our obsession with our way of worship is the principal challenge we need to confront. Actually, I think that mainline Christianity may have multiple challenges - and we just might be on a secular decline. I don't know that it's wise to identify any single issue as the key to reviving membership. Rather, I think we should do what we can. It just happens that I think we should attempt to create services that are more contemporary, while at the same time preserving that which is beautiful in our current traditions.