Actually, ecumenism is not a false debate when one is speaking of unity with the Church from which the Anglican Church split over a divorce case.

Ever notice that while the Anglican Communion prays that "all may be one" the church continues to fragment? Meanwhile the Catholic Church which has taught consistently for two millennia remains united under the Magesterium.

The door is always welcome for those who want to return Home.

[JF, In the future please take note of our transparency policy and sign your full name. Thanks - eds.]

As an Anglican who is increasinly embracing a "Protestant" identity, I was struck by Cardinal Kasper's statement: "We would see the Anglican Communion as moving a considerable distance closer to the side of the Protestant churches of the 16th century...." I think this statement reveals a fundamental problem with engagement between Anglicanism and Rome, a failure on both sides to be honest about the Reformation heritage of Anglicanism and the fact that probably a majority of Anglicans worldwide regard themselves, happily, proudly, and confidently, as on "the side of the Protestant churches of the 16th century." It isn't a matter of "moving" there; we never left! Witness, for example, how we have established full-communion relationships with other Reformation churches (such as TEC's with the ELCA). One need not go to Sidney, Australia to find Anglicans who would respond to Cardinal Kasper by asking, "What exactly is the problem with our remaining committed to our Reformation heritage?" This would include many Anglicans who are quite happy with candles, incense, and chasubles... along with justification by faith and the belief that Scripture "containeth all things necessary for salvation."

Does Rome really think a majority of Anglicans are willing to abandon the Reformation faith of Tyndale, Cranmer, Ridely, and Latimer? And do the Anglican leaders who have so far been involved in dialogue with Rome believe this? If so, they need to be given a wake-up call.

Once again, we appear to have a problem with a few Anglican Communion leaders claiming to speak for all Anglicans (bishops speaking to other bishops), and fundamentally misleading our dialogue partners about what the 'rank-and-file' actually believe.

[My reference to Sidney made me chuckle. I wonder if anyone has told the Jensen brothers that ordination of women represents movement "to the side of the Protestant churches of the 16th century"?]

Actually Rome's view of ecumenism is like its rejection of 'no-fault' divorce. There must be an innocent party (Rome) and an offending party (Reformation Churches and Anglicans. Until Rome admits its share of culpability and remorse, there is no way we Anglicans will ever go 'home'. We have pioneered and made a new home and our home is open-door community(Holy Communion for all baptized) not a gated community like Rome's.

Don Hands

JF,
Thanks for the invitation. But, I'm already happily at Home in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

As for the assertion that the Catholic Church "remains united under the Magesterium," the Eastern Orthodox would beg to differ... and in any case, it bears pointing out that "unity" is easy to maintain when one expels, excommunicates, drives out, and (in the past) executes anyone who challenges the Magesterium. I hear that 99% of Cubans support Fidel Castro, too.

When Rome trashed Anglican orders in the 1800s, the English bishops issued a witty and accurate reply -- but unhappily Anglicans have been looking over their shoulders ever since to see what the Vatican would think. Until Vatican II, this seemed reasonable, to hope that the historic churches were drawing together, but with Vatican hardliners dismantling Roncalli's council and ever centralizing power in Rome, ecumenism no longer promises a way forward. Indeed, the Catholic story no longer compels -- we now realize that Apostolic succession doesn't go back to the apostles, the unity of the church has been based on Empire and not faith, and councils of bishops haven't proved a reliable way to govern the church. Rome? (Its claimed authority was founded and continued on misrepresentations and lies. Peter wasn't a pope and may never have been in Rome; Rome's early claims of extra-diocesan jurisdiction were backed up with forgeries; centuries of glossing over sexual abuse by clergy have left the institution with no moral authority.) Not a
role model, or even an attractive partner.

In trying to centralize Anglicans in order to present something definite for negotiation with Rome, Rowan Williams seems to be appealing directly to dissident dioceses at the expense of national churches. But the institution is most alive at the parish level, where people meet, pray, and relate. Bishops' leadership of late seems timid or irrelevant. In contrast, the UCC seems to have its act together. Maybe we're moving to congregationalism after all.

Murdoch Matthew,
spouse of the
undersigned.

It's one thing for Anglicans to be mindful of their common tradition with Roman Catholicism and even to be led by that common tradition when supported by Scripture, tradition and reason.

But it's absurd to think that, behind these cautions is some possibility that Rome might recognize the Anglican communion the same way it recognized the various Eastern uniate churches.

As far as Rome is concerned, it is the one and only church in the Western tradition. The rest of us are "faith communities."

I swam the Tiber once and now am halfway back to the other side--I'm a lapsed RC convert, unable to reconcile myself with either communion.

In my experience, many Roman Catholics consider Anglicanism with a special hostility, as a kind of "fake" and therefore dangerously fraudulent Catholicism. They don't understand why moderate and conservative Episcopalians can't just convert.

Meanwhile the Catholic Church which has taught consistently for two millennia remains united under the Magesterium.

Heh-heh: how recently did you convert, JF? You've got that Recent Convert's way w/ the flashcard talking-point! (In this case, an extremely humorous talking-point, to this ecumenist)

On-topic: what's most disturbing in all this, is how much Rowan Cantuar is now parroting the Popoid line. The Tiber's that-a-way, if he'd like to make the swim (though like Jean R above, how much he'd enjoy the destination, upon toweling off, remains to be seen. Then again, he might be another JF, revelling in the Kool-aid :-X)

Whatever: God bless TEC!

JC Fisher