Call me crazy, but it seems that Rowan++ is looking forward to the day when we will all be subsumed (assumed?) into the Catholic (not catholic) church. Does such a relationship include accepting papal infallibility and obedience?

Greta,

Yes, this means assenting to all dogma of the church including papal infallibity (a doctrine most misunderstand) and the Assumption/Immaculate Conception of Our Lady.

This is huge.

It's long been thought in certain quarters that much of the Anglo-Catholic defection to ACNA was a waiting move for something like this to come about so they could make the Evangelicals pay the legal fees while they headed off to Rome.

Furthermore, this is a really big deal for British Anglicans who can't theologically agree with women bishops. (Of course, in their case they'll have to *rediscover* Anglican liturgy and spirituality since they've been using the Novus Ordo mass ever since Vatican II...)

As Jim says, we'll be able to say more on when more becomes available.

Maybe I'm just being cynical, but two things:

1) doesn't having one's own bishops and liturgies sound just a little bit "federated"? and

2) Is Rowan's mind eased by the possible outflux of some of the more strongly anti-WO crowd from England? (Of course, as you note, TAC folks left some time ago. But surely this opens the door for more.)

Derek, help me out here. Who is it huge for? How many people? Outside of clergy circles and blog jockeys, I havne't foundanybody who gives damn about this.

Jim, this is huge first for the Traditional Anglican Communion whose presence in the USA is in the Anglican Church in America. They seem most visible in Australia, but they have congregations in the US, Canada, and the UK. They have been in these discussions for some time, and this sort of Uniate status may well suit them. We might note that ACA was invited and was an observer for a while as ACNA was forming, but backed away.

In addition, Ruth Gledhill's commentators might be right in that this will have effect in terms of women's ordination in England. Do those who are militantly opposed now have a place to go that they didn't have before?

In parallel, one wonders how it might affect ACNA and FoCA. Will this be a wedge issue between the conservative evangelicals and the FiF crowd? That remains to be seen, but it's an interesting question.

I have said elsewhere that Rowan wanted some sort of recognition from Rome, but I don't think this is what he envisioned. Rather, he has wanted enough cohesion in the Anglican Communion to be seen as a "church" in Roman terms, a peer with Rome and Constantinople without "ecclesial deficit." The fact that Rome admits no peer (check that press release: when Rome speaks of the "universal Church," they mean only themselves) hasn't disuaded him so far. Will this? I just don't know.

Marshall Scott

You can be sure that there are millions of Anglicans who would never become Roman Catholic. We don't have to worry about that.

What I think would be lovely would be for the Anglican Communion to reciprocate such generosity and create a similar structure to welcome into our fold those Roman Catholics who wish to worship as their conscience dictates. Or at the very least have such an organization here in The Episcopal Church to welcome American Roman Catholics whop are disaffected with the RCC. To open our arms to those who know that the repressive dogma, second class citizenship of women and their view of homosexuality has directly contributed to the abuse of and violence against women, children and GLBT all over the world.

First, Jim, who do you think reads this site? For people who are interested in World Anglicanism, this is something very big.

In England in particular, this may be significant occurrence. Whereas in the USA FiF and others have teamed up with evangelicals n whom they agree about wedge issues, that's not been the case in England. They've also looked across the Tiber more than we. Clearly no one can say for sure and the details will be significant but there could be a fair amount of movment from English Anglo-Catholics into the Roman Church.

In the US, I doubt we'll see a whole lot of impact directly on the Episcopal Church. Most of the Anglo-Catholics for whom Women's Ordination was a non-negotiable left either in the 70's with the Continuing Movement or recently with the formation of the ACNA. The way this could play out here is to deflate the AC side of ACNA which is a fundamentally conservative evangelical movement at heart.

I continue to find this story difficult to get a handle on. The media is responding as though it is extremely significant, and a number of my correspondents agree with them. Yet, something that seems to me quite similar to what is now being put on offer globally has been available in the United States for some time, and it hasn't exactly changed the religious landscape.

Take a look here:
http://www.pastoralprovision.org/History.html

Then here, where you will learn that while the pastoral provision has been available for 25 years has ammased a whopping seven parisehs under its jurisdiction.

http://www.pastoralprovision.org/Parishes.html

This may, of course, play differently in England than it does here, but unles I am missing something, I don't see this affecting the Episcopal Church very much.

But as many, many people seem to think I am wrong about this, I am eager to learn what I might be missing.

Fair enough, Derek. What I am trying to get a grip on is not why people think it may be huge for a small number of people, and possibly for the Church of England--although we shall see--but why it is playing as big news in the secular press.

So huge may mean 1,000,000 people, give or take 10,000. Which is really nothing.

It's very big amongst the people I talk with, but I'm not sure why it's big in the secular press other than the obvious reason: using "church", "controversy", and "sex" in the same sentence.

Jim, it's big in the secular press because the secular press doesn't understand what it means, or how it impacts anyone. To them, TEC and the AC are falling apart over Gene Robinson, so the press decides that all this is linked together. Note that the media aren't speaking much of women's ordination, which is what caused much of the split in the first place.

Sister Gloriamarie suggested that we create a similar thing in TEC for disaffected RCs who want to come over ... we already have that. It is called The Episcopal Church, and we do welcome RCs in, many of whom never officially are received because they cannot bring themselves to leave the "one, true faith." I know, because it took me years to do so myself.

What's happening is (a) it's a slow news day in religious reporting; (b) people are getting all wrapped up in what they think is something new, when it is NOT new; and (c) ++Rowan hasn't helped with his response, which makes this sound new and surprising. If the ABofC had merely said, "Yes, well, this has been an offer on the table for more than two decades, so there are no surprises here," then folks wouldn't be getting all wound up about it. But no, he had to issue a letter that shows his version of graciousness, which means that he's compromising. Since he's under attack for compromising on everything under the sun, it seems, this is just one more piece with which to beat him over the head.

Now, how does this affect the average Episcopalian? Not at all. For most of us, this is as remote as the goings-on in ... (fill in the blank with the most remote place you can think of). It has little or nothing to do with us.

What it DOES seem to do, however, because of the way the media are playing this, is make TEC and the AC look ever more conflicted, confused and wrapped up in politics.

Perhaps it's time that we all figured out how to tell a POSITIVE story about ourselves, and quit reacting to things that matter not.

I am enjoying these comments. Whether the information can be considered "big," or not, I welcome the news. Disenchanted Anglican Christians can already make a choice for centralized jurisdiction and order (as I posted further at http://goodfaithandthecommongood.blogspot.com/).
Sam Candler

According to a letter at Ruth's site, the two major English AC bishops have set a decision date of February 22nd.

Y'all who want to go to the Roman Catholic Church,go right ahead and I sincerely hope you enjoy it. Speaking for myself, there a few things in this life I absolutely refuse to do, and join the RC's is one of them.
C. Mack

I saw the announcement about the press conference last night and I was really hoping for something positive. Alas, disappointed again.

It seems as though the ABC has been working to find homes for those who have left Canterbury, rather than working toward some reconciliation with those who remain in communion, albeit somewhat stressed.

I find this particularly distressing. Of course, Rowan's intent could be to disestablish the AC; then he won't have to put up with those pesky national churches anymore and can concentrate on the imploding CofE.

Benny6teen said that he would most likely leave a smaller, purer Roman Church. He may well do the same for us!

Now, do you think we can get a deal for Rick Warren to take the Calvinists?

I just can't bring myself to care.

When I got involved in ecumenism 20 years ago, I was rather shocked, even then, how many Episcopal (and moreso, Anglican) ecumenists were Roman Wannabees.

Now, I imagine that most of these Wannabees are ARES, or WILL BEEs...

...potentially leaving their positions open to Yours Truly. Ooops, they took ecumenism with them (for some strange reason).

JC Fisher