Buildings DO belong to the church, but I can't help but wonder if one might think twice before automatically asserting ownership, both here and in the C of E. Sometimes it is good to get rid of a building for the sake of expanded opportunities and resources for ministry. Sometimes buildings help ministry, sometimes they retard it by drawing funds away from other worthwhile endeavors.

I expect that the Church of England, as an established church, has no power whatsoever to give over its buildings to Rome.

June Butler

It is good to remember that a good many of the buildings in England, not to mention Ireland, were expropriated from the Catholics to begin with. I know that doesn't fit with our TEC official stance of "people can leave, but parishes and dioceses can't."

Bill Ledbetter

"What you are going to do, do quickly." Hmm, the NAB (American Catholic BIshops) translation of John 13:27. Does Fr. Tomlinson suggest the C of E synod plays Judas to his Jesus? Does this kind of talk make those who continue to refuse to recognize the ministry of women more Christlike?

Penny Nash

I think Grandmère Mimi is quite right, but in any case whether or not the CofE has the power to give buildings to Rome, it's Not Gonna Happen. It should be pretty clear by now that even in the US (where churches are private organizations) the schismatics will not be able to abscond with the Church's property, except to the extent that they are wasting our time and money. But Tom raises a point: given that many churches in England are "redundant" and expensive to maintain, it might not be a bad idea just to let both the ConEvos and the Anglo-Papists have some buildings (CofE's choice), along with their utility and repair bills.

'Bye, Ed. Have a good trip. God bless. "Amiable separation is preferable to an abusive, damaging union." You got that right.

Fr Irving Hammer, SSC, a respected English Anglo-Catholic priest, let Ed Tomlinson have it with both barrels with a detailed comment that he posted two days ago at Tomlinson's blog "St Barnabas' Blog". Long, but deserves posting and reading in full:

"Oh not again!

Your notes on Jeffrey John are unpleasant, unkind and unnecessary.
Who are you to sit in judgement and cast doubt on this man’s honesty and integrity?
I suggest you make an appointment with the Dean of St Albans and get a few things of your chest and troubled conscience. He is a very good confessor! He is also the Dean of one of England’s best attended Cathedrals where his priestly and pastoral and teaching ministry are deeply valued and appreciated.

I assume from your post that you don’t know him.

I have known him for 30 years. I don’t recognise your crass description of Fr. John as being a “campaigner for ordaining sexually active homosexuals.” You make him out to be some sort of gay activist obsessed with male homosexual activity – nothing could be further from the truth.

I do know of his views and I would have been more clear and honest in my description of some of them. I would say he is a priest who affirms permanent stable monogamous human relationships, be they homo or heterosexual. This is in accordance with the teaching Church of England. Why do you have to see human relationship only through the very narrow prism of sex. That says more about you than anyone else and maybe reaches back to your deeply Protestant past with a Calvinist stance on humanity and sin.

We all recall the Reading incident and it is not necessary for you or anyone else to remind us of that tragic and difficult situation where a good priest (your brother and mine) was treated with such disdain and unpleasantness beyond all reason.

Of course most of this venom was posted to him by Christians! People are allowed to hold ‘another view’ and express it – but that is done among the baptised tempered with charity and not fuelled by prejudice and from a premiss of animosity.

The place for you is on the penitent side of the confessional. If I were sitting on the other side I would be giving you this advice. Go away and read, mark learn and inwardly digest the Holy Scripture St John 7: 53-8:11. And then, for a penance, I would ask you to pray every day for the grace of humility so as to deal with your real and perceived sense of your own importance.

Jeffrey John is living within the teaching of the Church of England and you have no right publicly to distrust his word or even make veiled suggestions as to the nature of his partnership which you know nothing about.

You seem to spend most of your time telling everyone and sundry what they ought to do as if they were Roman Catholics. You are not a Roman Catholic of course – but a married Anglican vicar with children. A Pope and Perambulator type of chap.

So stop being so un-priestly and un- Christian in your discussion of others in such a public way. And to quote your own blog “ please stop making inflammatory comments based on ignorance and prejudice” And stop quoting the Magisterium of the RC Church concerning moral theology and ethics to Anglicans. You can do that when you are one of them and then to other Roman Catholic Christians, Priests, Bishops and Religious.

May the Ordinariate come soon for you. You can go and be put out of your misery and give the Cof E a break from your constant judgemental, sarcastic and sometimes un holy criticism of people, parishes, places and individuals. You appear to think this is informative and even clever – it is neither.

I hope for your peace of mind you will be able to cope with being in the ordinariate as a former Anglican. If you don’t already know there are many homosexual Clergy, Religious and good lay folk who sing with a alacrity “full in the panting heart of Rome” Many of whom live in isolation and fear and some with secret partners male and female. They are already there, they have always been there and will always be there. More could well be on the way via the Ordinariate. For those who are genuine the Ordinariate could well be what they need and I pray God’s blessing on it and those who will enter its fold. History will judge its success.

However, you do seem to suggest that the creation of the Ordinariate is going to be some kind of homosexual free zone. History is littered with those who have sought to create some perfect church/sect on earth. They have nearly always destroyed themselves from within. That destruction has come via the same things they have sought to hide and escape from within themselves or in others they have often held in high esteem.

Bon voyage ……and of your charity pray also for me a sinner."

Lapinbizarre

For the avoidance of confusion, please note that by posting "Lapinbizarre" at the close of the post above, I am noting my own dual nature, not indicating that Fr Hamer is LB.

Bill Moorhead, I wonder whether the Roman Catholic authorities in England would want the Church of England's cast-off churches. I gather that RC churches are being declared redundant in rather large numbers.

Regarding Fr Hammer's response to Fr Tomlinson, "Ouch!"

June Butler

It is good to remember that a good many of the buildings in England, not to mention Ireland, were expropriated from the Catholics to begin with.

But they've always remained Catholic (continually Ecclesiae Anglicana), Bill L, so what's your point?

[If you're speaking about the later, strictly Roman version of the Catholic Church, no, they were never "expropriated" from them. May I ask, Fr Bill, in what seminary you learned your Church History?]

JC Fisher