Great essay, Eric. I just want to be clear that the "DFMS" who made the recommendation was specifically composed of high-level staff who work at the Church Center. Viewed more broadly, "DFMS" could be seen as the General Convention (which voted to sell the building). Or, legally speaking, it could be seen as Executive Council, which has legal authority as the board of directors to sell the building. As a member of Executive Council, I can only say that we heard the report and referred it to committee, which will study the issue carefully. But this report and its unexpected recommendations represent the staff wing of DFMS only - not either of those other governing bodies.

Susan Snook

I think that we should resist the temptation to achieve short-term benefits by selling Church properties, including “815.” Land is finite. Sure, like all mainline Churches, TEC is contracting. But, who’s to say that in ten, twenty, thirty, forty years things may be different? We have to look to the long-term, as well as being practical. I think that our general rule should be to rent properties, rather than sell them outright.

For example, a small Episcopal congregation (in an area where there are one or more other Episcopal parishes) has to close down. Let’s not jump to sell the property; maybe the local storefront Evangelicals would rather rent a real church rather than a mall store meeting space. Perhaps in twenty-five years we can say to them, “Sorry, sisters and brothers, you’re going to have to find a new home. Our expanding membership requires us to re-activate this building.” We will have a well-maintained worship space ready to go, and not have to invest resources in buying land, constructing a building, etc.

Kurt Hill
Brooklyn, NY

Perfect timing on this one: I'm literally on my way out the door to our annual two day vestry/staff conference where the theme this year is ... wait for it ... "Reorganization for Transformation." -- and we've invited the elephant to be part of the planning team! :)

Seriously ... sending this link to our team right now to add to the resource list. Cheers!

Susan Russell
All Saints Church, Pasadena

As a parishioner in the pew, 2000 miles away from 815, I'd really like to know what 815 is doing for TEC? It seems completely irrelevant to my life and the life of my parish. I get that decisions from General Convention have an impact, but 815?

It "feels" nice to think of the national church headquartered at or near the National Cathedral. It seems like that could give us more relevance to our national life. That maybe we could be more relevant in lobbying for human rights, gun control, and other moral issues.

Not that any decisions should be made on my feelings, I'm not a financial person. I'm just expressing what seems more relevant and important to me.

Well, Cynthia, I have no problem moving the National Church HQ to DC. What I DO have a problem with is the idea that we should sell 815.

Kurt Hill
Brooklyn, NY

I do not see how selling 815 when the market is advantageous is really a problem.

I live on the West Coast. I see too often the East Coast focus of the church, the East Coast and New England direction that the church has. This is because of the national headquarters being in New York.

Why not consider moving the church to a more central location that is less expensive to maintain? The financial gain from such a position would be beneficial even in a time when the monies are in decline from a revenue perspective.

I understand the argument from a "history" leg of the three legged stool, now it is time, as Ann has suggested, we look a the "reason" leg. Time to really run the church's financial part as a business or a home would run it--you reallocate your position as is needed.

Correction: The attribution should be to Eric as well as Ann.

Hi Kurt. Besides renting the building, I'd encourage you to dream a little about what possibilities are out there. Do we want a building in New York? Does it need to be there? If we are about service to others, what about a location in need of economic stimulus? Do we even need a headquarters building at all? Amidst the uproar at Yahoo! about telecommuting, I was pondering the idea: What about a virtual arrangement? Heaven knows, there's plenty of vacant real estate in our portfolio these days, and we could readily use the $11 million to purchase broadband connections, etc. for workers and still have plenty left over for other things. And the nice thing about TEC is there usually is meeting space close at hand via a local parish or cathedral.

On the issue of renting 815 to others, it's been a while since I looked at the hard numbers, but my sense was that the existing leases were helpful, but not really enough to make a big difference. So, I am not sure that leasing the entire building, if terms of additional leases mirrored those already in place, would be all that helpful. Perhaps Susan could help with this--she is wonderful in her ability to understand the intricacies of our rather cumbersome and clunky budget.

Eric Bonetti

I posted the item below on the bishops-deputies list.

Hearing all of the reorganization talk linked to the building is both amusing and irritating.

The elephant is restructuring and reorganizing, not a piece of real estate. If we expect the real estate to give us much guidance we will be waiting for quite a while.

Every day I see people who are yearning for a faith connection that teaches them to think about their faith, to engage with their mind on issues of theology. They are not looking for someone to tell them what to do....been there and did it and suffered accordingly.

We have had a golden opportunity staring us in the face since at least 2003, yet we have not utilized it. Too many have cowered in fear rather than teach and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ....a message that didn't give the answers but prompted questions and still sought to draw in all sorts and conditions of humanity.

I don't know what the structure group will propose. But do we need to wait on that to get involved in that awful "E" word known as evangelism? I see no reason to wait. When was the last time you invited someone to church and prefaced the invitation with the comment: "We will not ask you to check your brain at the door and we will not discourage your questions."

815 Second Avenue is but one of a number of resources available to us. The most important resource is we, ourselves, our souls and bodies.

Too much gum beating, not enough action.

I don't live in New York or the Northeast and I do not want to live there. I am happy with where I live for the most part. I would be almost totally happy were it not for the redneck legislators who now run the state and insist on keeping us in the 18th century when it comes to most social and educational issues and have no problem using 21st century financial manipulations that line their own pockets. It actually sounds a lot like Texas to me. But both of those are discussions for a later date. And let me note that I descend from a very long line of Georgia rednecks and white trash and at least a couple from Texas since that's where the branch migrated from.

The "out of New York, out of New York" mantra has been going on for as long as I can remember. I've never grasped it. Perhaps I should grasp it completely having grown up in such a backward part of the country that couldn't possibly give me an appreciation of Neeewwww Yoooork Ciiitttyyy!!! Yet I do have such an appreciation. It is a vibrant place. It is the center of much of what drives the nation economically and culturally, regardless of whether we like it or not. It is often what tweaks our consciences about our provincial attitudes that keep lying to us with "everything is perfectly fine where we are and we don't need a thing from New York or Chicago or Los Angeles or wherever."

While I would not live in New York....just too many people in too little space, property too expensive for me to have as much as I own here....I do enjoy visiting. It is a vibrant city, filled with energy and life.

Most importantly, New York City does to us what most of us do not want done: She exposes us to all different kinds of people. She is home to virtually all of God's children with their many faces, accents, skin tones, races, ethnicities, religious beliefs, backgrounds, economic status and any other criteria of difference that could possibly exist. That scares many of us who are used to seeing only folks who look and act just like we do. We who are accustomed to only seeing mirror images of ourselves, particularly in church, still fear those who are different.

New York is a great way to see what the world outside our silos is all about. You can get anywhere in the city any time via most any form of conveyance. But if you get on subways and buses, you have to be prepared to face the full spectrum of God's created humanity up close and personal. That probably scares some of you...it still does me some times. But I've learned to do what most seem to do: Mind my own business, stay aware of my surroundings and be alert for my stop....particularly if I'm on an express!

I see Atlanta becoming much more like New York....except our public transportation is for crap, mostly due to white racism, but that too is a different story. I am now at times hearing several languages other than English at grocery stores and department stores. Growing up all I heard was "Southern."

From my perspective, while the numbers work best to stay put, AND YOU MUST CONSIDER ALL COSTS INCLUDING RELOCATIONS, EEOC NEEDS, PROXIMITY, ETC., such is what should be done. It is folly to think that 800 plus Deputies and however many bishops there were at the time can make such a decision without having all of the facts before them AND being willing to lay aside their own prejudices....which they have, admitted or not.

Some think that they have the cheapest place to house the Church Center. I always wonder if such is the case when all factors are considered. I live with the world's largest and busiest airport. Do we get the best airfares in and out of here? By no means at all....we get shafted. I do get good fares to New York however....on a consistent basis and direct flights. Having served on Executive Council and fought over flight arrangements on a regular basis because of our fares (another story which would fall on deaf ears) and having listened to how many changes and layovers it took when meetings were in even Chicago, or LA, this is not a simple problem to resolve.

On a more personal note, I wouldn't advise any of my LGBT friends who are married to move here. Their marriage licenses and benefits as spouses are worthless once they cross the state line. Many friends have gone out of state to get married and come home to have the marriage blessed by the church....wonderful and beautiful....that is until the reality of living where the right wing Southern Baptists still control politics and this is the home of the likes of Ralph Reed and the founding place of the so-called Christian Coalition. I grew up with that mess that wants a theocracy....I don't wish it on others.

Let's leave the Church Center where it is and put that energy toward finding ways to work on our Five Marks of Mission.....I think I hear Jesus calling....He's getting irritated with our obsession with bashing New York.

Bruce

Bruce Garner
L5 Atlanta

When the proposal to move the Church Center to General Seminary collapsed in 2003, the national church had to make some decisions about the 11-story Church Center (built in 1962). The building had serious deferred maintenance issues which included asbestos removal. Further, it was not in compliance with the 1990 Americans With Disabilities Act (in fact it had virtually no accessible facilities for the disabled), and it needed fire and safety upgrades in order to comply with revised building codes implemented after the 9/11 attacks. The total cost was estimated at $29.9 million.

In June 2004 the Executive Council authorized $31 million for the renovation of the Church Center. But where do you get this kind of money?

According to the story in Episcopal Life written by Jerry Hames (see the 7/1/04 issue), the committee studying the renovation project recommended "to finance the project with 100% bank financing amortized over 30 years." Instead, the decision was made to withdraw the $31 million from a $50 million line of credit happily extended by the banks we have come to know so well.

What's the difference? With a mortgage (even at 100%) amortized over 30 years, one pays a bit of principle each month and the interest rate is fixed.
If one uses a line of credit, one is required to pay the interest only and can voluntarily pay principle. It was anticipated that future revenue (renting out space at the Church Center) would help with the cost. This plan produces lower payments and works as long as interest rates stay low.

If you run the numbers, shifting the financing from a line of credit to an actual 30 year mortgage will increase the payments by approximately $80,000 per
month, ie some $1 million per year. If one chooses not to change the financing, and interest rates start to go up, the results could be devastating (think teaser mortgage rates on a home mortgage).

If we were to sell the church center, it is likely that the building would be demolished and replaced with a taller, more modern structure. In effect, then,
we will lose the $30 million spent on renovations. (The fact that we spent $30 million on renovations does not increase the sales price for the building lot.) For better or for worse the 2004 decision of Executive Council to renovate the structure locked us in at that location for at least 20 years. To be sure, we can always sell the building and move somewhere else but at a cost of $30 million, a hefty price tag.

Clearly the resolution from General Convention expressed the desire to move out of 815 Second Avenue. I would have more respect for that view if the resolution had been more forthcoming and also stated (in effect): "We know that such a move will cost $30 million, a price we are willing to pay." The fact that GC did not say this does not preclude us from taking note of that reality.

The Rev Nathaniel Pierce
Diocese of Easton

Nathaniel, I respectfully disagree. Having taught financial management, the $30 million in renovation is now a sunk cost, i.e., spent and non-recoverable, regardless of whether the renovation added to the building's value. The time to have debated the merits of spending the $30 million was before the Church committed to the renovation contract(s). The building and ground on which it sits are worth what a buyer today will pay. That value, irrespective of any loan balance or renovation cost, is the critical number with respect to comparing possible future courses of action. The loan constitutes a separate issue, related to maximizing investment income and not to whether the Church should sell 815. Borrowing money can be good stewardship, e.g., borrowing for less than 4% APR to earn more than 6% annually. Other factors beyond return should influence decisions about borrowing, e.g., the amount of risk one is willing to accept. Discussions about selling 815 reflect more confusion than clarity by conflating the building's value and the outstanding loan.

George:

I am not sure where there is any disagreement. Yes, the $30 million is a "sunk cost." Whether we sell the building or not, it is a loan which will have to be repaid. Right now renting unused space in the building helps out with the payments.

Scenario (A) -- We sell the building and move to a new location (buy or rent). That transaction (selling the building and obtaining new space plus the cost of moving) will cost $XXX. We still have to pay off the $30 million.

Scenario (B) -- We keep the building and continue to pay down the $30 million loan from rental income.

My sense is that Scenario (A) has a higher cost than (B) -- one factor to be considered in the decision making process. Do you disagree with that?

Nathaniel Pierce
Diocese of Easton

There are two threads in the discussion: First, should TEC sell 815? The
answer to that is easy: let the financial wizards figure out the best
financial solution. My intuition is that the bishop quoted in a comment by Bishop Whalen is right, never sell in Manhattan.

Second, should TEC HQ move from New York City? I'm inclined to agree with
a comment made by Ann Fontaine; it doesn't matter where the hard-working, dedicated staff closest to
parish/mission ministry do their work.

There does seem to be a perception that TEC's leadership, at a policy
level, would be different if it were subject to the assumed parochial interests of the "Heartland" instead of the assumed parochial interests of the urban East Coast. I'm not convinced of that.

Seems to me that the broad diversity of TEC includes five broad
geographically-based cultures: Eastern US, Southern/Southeastern US,
Heartland US, Western US, and extra-US. (There are many diverse cultures
within each of these broad, overlapping divisions.) IMHO, a move of TEC HQ
to the Heartland soon would result in antagonism about the assumed parochial attitudes of a TEC HQ unduly influenced by the assumed parochial
interests of the Heartland culture.

I've used "assumed" a lot here. IMHO, we all need to examine our assumptions and cultural biases as we discuss a move of TEC HQ. How do we get from assumption and bias to an objective decision?

@Jim: Yours point about assumption and bias is excellent.

My intent in talking about 815 (a white elephant, if there ever was one) was to use it as particularly poignant example of how we assume that, because there's an elephant in the living room, and he seems reasonably happy, we need to continue to have an elephant in the living room. But there's much more to this than just 815--we need to be open to change, to fresh ideas, to innovation at all levels of the church. I truly believe that the church is poised for wonderful things...if we can let go of our anxiety and fear long enough to allow for growth and progress.

Eric Bonetti

815 is not an elephant; it's a scapegoat. Not to mention a red herring. If true transformation/growth/evolution/etc. is really not possible without selling real estate in Manhattan, we're in much bigger trouble than we realize.

David Decker-Drane
Evanston, IL